[quote name='ShawnCowles' timestamp='1334932610' post='4933220']
If I had to guess, glhf, the reason that game designers don't get respected in indy teams is because of people like you. Dictatorial game designers who think that everyone should follow their lead without questioning have no place in a team, be it indy or AAA.

Jbadams says the word troll and all the trolls come running to this thread making completely unconstructive replies on this threads subject.

So mr shawn whats your reasoning for not agreeing with me?
I have already given a logical reason why dictatorial game designers are best and no one has counter argued it yet.
[/quote]

Well I'm not trolling for starters, I'm offering blunt criticism.

And my logical reason is simple, and already stated previously: Motivation

I'm working on my own project because I have creative input in it. The project is my brainchild and I'm emotionally invested in seeing it succeed.

Now lets say that I'm working for you on an independent project. You have total creative control and I'm just a code monkey. Why am I going to do any work for you? You could pay me, but then my motivation is entirely monetary. I don't care if the game soars or burns, as long as I get paid while it happens. You could try giving me outcome based incentives like a promotion or share of the profits if the game does well, but I'm going to weigh the potential benefits against the year+ of getting bossed around.

A good indy team should be a team not a dictatorship.

You should have at least basic programming and art knowledge yes to be a good game designer.

With just basic programming, how would you know if advanced programming techniques can be used to add features to your game?

Troll of the day? This thread smells funny.

I don't think so. The OP genuinely doesn't understand, and I think it's an important concept. And I understand that guys like the OP won't understand this basic truth of the game industry -- the position of game designer requires a huge amount of trust (by the team, for the designer), which is why the designer has to be someone with experience (not only someone with ideas, no matter how good the ideas may be).
And FWIW, I'm astounded by a thread having generated so much discussion in such a short time.

[quote name='glhf' timestamp='1334932945' post='4933224']
[quote name='ShawnCowles' timestamp='1334932610' post='4933220']
If I had to guess, glhf, the reason that game designers don't get respected in indy teams is because of people like you. Dictatorial game designers who think that everyone should follow their lead without questioning have no place in a team, be it indy or AAA.

Jbadams says the word troll and all the trolls come running to this thread making completely unconstructive replies on this threads subject.

So mr shawn whats your reasoning for not agreeing with me?
I have already given a logical reason why dictatorial game designers are best and no one has counter argued it yet.
[/quote]

Well I'm not trolling for starters, I'm offering blunt criticism.

And my logical reason is simple, and already stated previously: Motivation

I'm working on my own project because I have creative input in it. The project is my brainchild and I'm emotionally invested in seeing it succeed.

Now lets say that I'm working for you on an independent project. You have total creative control and I'm just a code monkey. Why am I going to do any work for you? You could pay me, but then my motivation is entirely monetary. I don't care if the game soars or burns, as long as I get paid while it happens. You could try giving me outcome based incentives like a promotion or share of the profits if the game does well, but I'm going to weigh the potential benefits against the year+ of getting bossed around.

A good indy team should be a team not a dictatorship.
[/quote]

Why you should work as a programmer together with a game designer?
Simple, To make a great game and make money.

If you don't like the game design.. Find another game designer who has something of your interest.
You could become a game designer yourself.. but I haven't seen any programmers who are good game designers.
Programmers have a bad habit of just going with the flow since they can code instantly whatever ideas pop into their head.
And they only make mediocre GDD's because of this.. if they make one at all.

Having the player facing the direction they should go when they log in, using warm lighting to draw the player in a direction. But it's hard to tell if someone asking to be your designer is even aware of such minor details.

This is an excellent example of why we can't design everything precisely right from the start.

If were programming our own 3D engine, there is really no way to tell if the lighting is enough or is in the right position to draw the player towards our intended direction. Simply because we don't know how it will all look in our engine.

We have to make a basic working game, test it, and change if required.

Programmers have a bad habit of just going with the flow since they can code instantly whatever ideas pop into their head.
And they only make mediocre GDD's because of this.. if they make one at all.

Again you have proven that you have no idea what you are talking about. What you mean is a hacker. A good programmer will plan and make a software design before he even begins to write a line of code.

[quote name='Madhed' timestamp='1334931919' post='4933213']
Troll of the day? This thread smells funny.

I don't think so. The OP genuinely doesn't understand, and I think it's an important concept. And I understand that guys like the OP won't understand this basic truth of the game industry -- the position of game designer requires a huge amount of trust (by the team, for the designer), which is why the designer has to be someone with experience (not only someone with ideas, no matter how good the ideas may be).
And FWIW, I'm astounded by a thread having generated so much discussion in such a short time.
[/quote]

It's not me that is having hard time understanding.
The team working with the game designer doesn't have to trust him.. They have to understand him.
If they game design doesn't make sense to them then either the devs are stupid or the game designer is.. No way of knowing who is but when this happens you should ofcourse decline working on that game design.
There shouldn't be anything about trust in business.. You look at the facts on the papers and if it makes sense, seems logical and you agree with it and it sounds great.. make the game and make money!

[quote name='glhf' timestamp='1334935798' post='4933244']
Programmers have a bad habit of just going with the flow since they can code instantly whatever ideas pop into their head.
And they only make mediocre GDD's because of this.. if they make one at all.

Again you have proven that you have no idea what you are talking about. What you mean is a hacker. A good programmer will plan and make a software design before he even begins to write a line of code.
[/quote]

This is a different type of design you're talking about.
Not sure the correct lingo for it is but game designer focuses on all mechanics to the playing the game.
The programmer makes a design for how to code the game to create all the mechanics in the GDD.
(Game loop for example).

For example... The Game designer writes in the GDD about rendering range from the players camera, LOD etc.
Then the programmer writes a design how to code that.

You have basically just repeated what I wrote while in the same sentence contradicting your earlier statement that a programmer just programs whatever comes to his mind. Sorry, I can't take you serious and will refrain from posting in this thread. Good luck.

You have basically just repeated what I wrote while in the same sentence contradicting your earlier statement that a programmer just programs whatever comes to his mind. Sorry, I can't take you serious and will refrain from posting in this thread. Good luck.

No, This thread is about game design... you brought up code design out of the blue.