I don't play MMORPGs, so I'm a little out of the loop when it comes to crafting. What exactly is involved with it? Do players just search out ingredients or little trinkets, then combine them together to make items that already (secretly) exist in the game's object library? Or do players have the potential to create unique items that the designer doesn't need to consider during development? If I have a gun that can swap with up to three handles, three barrels, three triggers, and three energy sources, would that be crafting? Or is it more elaborate than that? Have there been crafting systems that allow the player to artistically design something that influences the gameplay? If so, how does one maintain balance with it? Or are most of them just artificial gimmicks that influence appearance and atmospheric elements?

Quote: Original post by Kest
Do players just search out ingredients or little trinkets, then combine them together to make items that already (secretly) exist in the game's object library?

That one, in my experience. Using WoW as the standard example, it goes a little like this:

Player obtains recipe, then amasses all ingredients, then activates recipe to combine ingredients into the item. It can't be done without the recipe, and some of the ingredients have to be manufactured from recipes and ingredients of their own. Some of them require a specific location, like a forge or a cooking fire or something, in order to be performed.

WoW crafting also has a slightly more complex side, where existing items can be augmented, either by items like "armor kits", which are built as items and can be traded or sold, then applied to an item to bestow a permanent buff to its performance, "enchantments", which are performed upon the target item, requiring it to be in the presence of the enchanter and all the appropriate materials when the recipe is activated, and "gems", which are built and can be traded about, then inserted into a target item to bestow a buff, and replaced at will.

So while each item exists in the database prior to its creation, the ability to combine the item and the buffs expands the library of possible hardware enormously.

I can't think of any systems I've encountered that are any deeper or more complex. EvE has a punishingly complex tech tree, requiring specialized ships and gear and starbases and factories to be constructed and erected and operated in order to harvest, refine, generate, manufacture, assemble and otherwise "craft" things, but it still just comes down to recipe + ingredients + equipment = item.

I agree with what Iron Chef Carnage says, I just wanted to add that in some systems crafted items have semi-random stats, and in some systems a crafted item has slots that the player can add a stat-bonus item (usually a rune or gem, sometimes a potion) to. An item with 10 slots and 100 possible stat bonus items to chose from for those slots is almost a unique item. Some crafting systems may allow a player to import a graphic to the game and apply it to an item, but this is a security problem because players will inevitably want to make obscene items. So again you can compromise with a slots/choices system - the player could pick a background color, a foreground symbol, a color for the foreground symbol, and maybe more complex combinations.

Another minor but relevant point is where exactly the ingredients come from. Some games have gathering professions - the resources spawn around the world but in order to gather them you need the correct level of the profession and the appropriate tool. Other resources are dropped by specific types of monsters, so your combat level has to be high enough to kill them. Some resources are bought from NPCs - from a player pov this sucks, but from a designer's pov it's a money sink. There are also often different types of crafting, and a specific level in one is necessary to craft an ingredient for use by another profession. I personally dislike limiting a character to having only a fraction of the available professions, but a lot of games do that to encourage players to make multiple characters.

If you decide to study crafting, in between WoW, EvE, and Dofus you would probably cover pretty much everything.

What about simulation-like experiences? One could say The Sims is like one big crafting system, since a large part of the player's objective is to build a house and family. The same is true with the Sim City series, where the player lays out zones in a completely custom fashion that is not regulated or limited in any way by the game designer (other than tile blocks).

Would it not be possible to create smaller-scale crafting systems that function in this manner? Think of a city in Sim City as a circuit board that produces electrical energy power instead of sim tax money. The power could be supplied to some weapon or equipment to boost it's effectiveness. Just as there's no clear optimal way to build a city in Sim City, there would be no clear optimal way to create this power circuit item. A player could experiment to find totally original methods of producing power. Some circuits might maintain a consistent output rate, where others would be better at producing large amounts, periodically.

Would something like this be considered crafting? I suppose the player could still be charged with obtaining gadgets and artifacts to attach to the circuit board (like individual buildings in the city) that have certain effects on it.

Quote: Original post by Kest
What about simulation-like experiences? One could say The Sims is like one big crafting system, since a large part of the player's objective is to build a house and family. The same is true with the Sim City series, where the player lays out zones in a completely custom fashion that is not regulated or limited in any way by the game designer (other than tile blocks).

Would it not be possible to create smaller-scale crafting systems that function in this manner? Think of a city in Sim City as a circuit board that produces electrical energy power instead of sim tax money. The power could be supplied to some weapon or equipment to boost it's effectiveness. Just as there's no clear optimal way to build a city in Sim City, there would be no clear optimal way to create this power circuit item. A player could experiment to find totally original methods of producing power. Some circuits might maintain a consistent output rate, where others would be better at producing large amounts, periodically.

Would something like this be considered crafting? I suppose the player could still be charged with obtaining gadgets and artifacts to attach to the circuit board (like individual buildings in the city) that have certain effects on it.

Pure genius.

Quote: Original post by Kest
What about simulation-like experiences? One could say The Sims is like one big crafting system, since a large part of the player's objective is to build a house and family. The same is true with the Sim City series, where the player lays out zones in a completely custom fashion that is not regulated or limited in any way by the game designer (other than tile blocks).

Would it not be possible to create smaller-scale crafting systems that function in this manner? Think of a city in Sim City as a circuit board that produces electrical energy power instead of sim tax money. The power could be supplied to some weapon or equipment to boost it's effectiveness. Just as there's no clear optimal way to build a city in Sim City, there would be no clear optimal way to create this power circuit item. A player could experiment to find totally original methods of producing power. Some circuits might maintain a consistent output rate, where others would be better at producing large amounts, periodically.

Would something like this be considered crafting? I suppose the player could still be charged with obtaining gadgets and artifacts to attach to the circuit board (like individual buildings in the city) that have certain effects on it.

I'm playing with a similar idea for the game I'm currently working on. The game itself is still in the Proof Of Concept fase, so we're mostly creating small apps to proof a certain idea we have for part of the game will actually work (in principle).

If you want you are more then welcome to join up and work some more on this idea, maybe even get it into the finished product.

There's also some other areas I could use some help with design wise, if you interested. Like the market system and such.

Quote: Original post by Iron Chef Carnage
I can't think of any systems I've encountered that are any deeper or more complex.

Ryzom. It's both simpler and more complex. You craft items according to a plan (recipe). The plan requires you to fill in a number of "craftable part" slots, but does not further restrict them. So, basically, it is very simple.

There are different grades of materials, and different materials are usable for the same purpose, however each one has its own unique combination of physical stats. For example, you have the choice between 5 different kinds of woods at 5 grades of quality, and about half a dozen each kitin shells or animal leathers as armour shell (most of them available in 3 or 4 grades). The individual combination of ingredients generates one unique item. The item's buffs are interpolated between that item template's "worst" and "best", which varies according to the weapon's level.
Additionally, there exist special crafting tools (which must be crafted from special materials) that have a 5% chance to provide an extra boost. Boosts can also exceed an item's "best possible" range.

Ingredients are available from mobs or can be harvested in specific locations, some of them only in certain seasons and at certain times, and in certain weather conditions.

Lastly, some items (e.g. magic amplifiers) have stats that are not visible in the crafting preview, so subtle differences in your own "secret mix" may make the difference between a usable and an great item.

Quote: Original post by Kest
Would it not be possible to create smaller-scale crafting systems that function in this manner? Think of a city in Sim City as a circuit board that produces electrical energy power instead of sim tax money.

Sure, but I think calling Sim City a small-scale system would be a gross understatement. Can you think up a miniature version of that which would be complex enough to be non-trivial to 'solve', but simple enough for designers and players to have a decent appreciation of how the system works? (Ultimately, I think most game design problems come down to this question, and the usual answer is 'no', which is why we regurgitate previous working designs.)

That reminds me a bit of Spore. Once you hit the higher levels, and are dealing with cities, you're presented with a bit of a puzzle minigame for their layout. You get factories, entertainment hubs and housing units, and then your capital building is in the center. The city plot is a little network of nodes, and you get money and morale boosts based on their position relative to one another. It's pretty easy to get decent output and high morale, or you can go for crazy high productivity and sacrifice morale. It's simple enough that those are really the only two possibilities you'll have to choose from, but you can't do both, which makes it somewhat important to manage it carefully.

Beta I'm participating in released the worst crafting idea yet today - crafting ingredients that are cash items. x_X I'm fine with vanity cash items, but cash items that are necessary for basic gameplay? They would be better off making the game subscription-based.