Thought experiment

I'd go with the latter.

[edited by - hpox on June 17, 2002 10:51:00 PM]

1) Are the atoms place back with the same velocities that they had when they were taken apart? If yes, then possibly, if no then I would think probably not.

2) ''You'' would be dead still (as you would be above) but a consciousness that is exactly like you could awaken.

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I will not make a list of links... I will not make a list of links... I will not make a list of links...
Invader''s Realm

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Original post by Invader X
1) Are the atoms place back with the same velocities that they had when they were taken apart? If yes, then possibly, if no then I would think probably not.

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I think the precision required in this experiment violates the Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle.

Additionally, in order to be the SAME person, you''d need to re-assemble the person in exactly the same position under exactly the same circumstances under which you took them apart. Anything less would violate the continuity of memory.

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Original post by Invader X
2) ''You'' would be dead still (as you would be above) but a consciousness that is exactly like you could awaken.

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I agree with that.
Like in that one ah-nold movie where they had backups of peoples memories, and everytime one of the "bad guys" got splattered, they put the latest backup into a clone...what was that movie?
Anyway, the "new" you would think and remember "your" experiences and thoughts, but "you" would be dead.

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Original post by Wolfmanyoda
I agree with that.
Like in that one ah-nold movie where they had backups of peoples memories, and everytime one of the "bad guys" got splattered, they put the latest backup into a clone...what was that movie?
Anyway, the "new" you would think and remember "your" experiences and thoughts, but "you" would be dead.

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The Sixth Day. Could''ve been cool if they didn''t have all that stuff where Ah-nold got all philosophical. I mean, philosophical Terminator Ah-nold is great, but not philosophical pilot guy Ah-nold. And can I mention that True Lies is great? I love the Tom Arnold/Ah-nold duo.

"I''ve never seen that. I''ve never seen anybody drive their garbage down to the side of the street and bang the hell out of it with a stick. I''ve never seen that."

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Original post by SpaceRook
I think the precision required in this experiment violates the Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle.

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Probably

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I will not make a list of links... I will not make a list of links... I will not make a list of links...
Invader''s Realm

Since we don''t know what consciousness really is, this is a rather pointless thing to talk about, IMNSHO.

In My Not So Humble Opinion?

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Heisenberg''s Uncertainty Principle has been taking a beating of late - everything from questioning the accuracy of this equipment to suggesting that he had a penchant for establishing a "Priesthood of Theoretical Physics". Not very long ago a paper was presented that showed that the Schrodinger equation could be derived from an "exact" uncertainty principle - "exact uncertainty" seems like a contradiction. (The paper was written by Michael J. W. Hall and Marcel Reginatto from the DOE and the Australian National University.)

While i can see the reconstruction of the body as a distinct possibility - do we know enough about the mind to say whether or not it would be preserved? Not at this point in time.

Another movie to consider in this context is AI - consider what the future being said regarding the temporal dependency of a dna sample. While that bit of speculation might not seem to apply to teleportation - consider the possibility of storing the newly disintegrated pattern rather than reintegrating it immediately at a different location - that is - consider the temporal displacement rather than the spatial displacement.

Another bit of theory to ponder - consider the higher dimensionalities and current limits of knowledge in that regard. We think of ourselves as existing in 3 dimensions and time - but what if we also exist - or parts of us - in higher dimensions as well - 9, 10, 11 even as high as 23 or 26 dimensions. If that happens to be the case, and a dimension (or several) is left out of the equation - the reintegrated body might be missing some crucial part...

According to me...

it isn''t known yet how conciousness works. So we don''t know if a conciousness depends on the matter and energy of a body or not, and we also don''t know if two identical bodies will be two, or one conciousness.

However, I do have to say this:

the two identical bodies are on another location, so their senses see different things, so they have other thoughts, so they are different. Only if they are at the exact same position and the same things happen to them, they are really identical enough. And because 2 matter particles can''t be at the same location, this is impossible, and identical people don''t exist.

Now my thoughts on a teleportation thing: if you step in a teleporter that scans your atoms, changes them in binary information, sends it through OC768 connection to another location, and there builds the atoms again, the guy there is the same person, he is as much the same as he would have been the same if he didn''t teleport. This is because you also change all the time if you don''t teleport: your brain remember every happening, so your brain changes all the time, and then alraedy you aren''t identical.

The only way to identify someone is because he is a continious being, he changes all the time, but gradually. But a 80 year person is not the same as when he was 20, only the continious changing and the unique space-time path of his body connects the 80-year person with his 20-year version. If you duplicate someone, they have the same past but another future and so they are different, unique beings.

I hope I didn''t put any contradiction in my post...

BTW. If you die and someone puts atoms together again, he has to put them back in a shape they were BEFORE you died, for example as how you were one month before you died. Because then your last month will be DIFFERENT from the last month your previous version lived, you are a DIFFERENT person.

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Original post by Lode
According to me...

it isn''t known yet how conciousness works. So we don''t know if a conciousness depends on the matter and energy of a body or not, and we also don''t know if two identical bodies will be two, or one conciousness.

However, I do have to say this:

the two identical bodies are on another location, so their senses see different things, so they have other thoughts, so they are different. Only if they are at the exact same position and the same things happen to them, they are really identical enough. And because 2 matter particles can''t be at the same location, this is impossible, and identical people don''t exist.

Now my thoughts on a teleportation thing: if you step in a teleporter that scans your atoms, changes them in binary information, sends it through OC768 connection to another location, and there builds the atoms again, the guy there is the same person, he is as much the same as he would have been the same if he didn''t teleport. This is because you also change all the time if you don''t teleport: your brain remember every happening, so your brain changes all the time, and then alraedy you aren''t identical.

The only way to identify someone is because he is a continious being, he changes all the time, but gradually. But a 80 year person is not the same as when he was 20, only the continious changing and the unique space-time path of his body connects the 80-year person with his 20-year version. If you duplicate someone, they have the same past but another future and so they are different, unique beings.

I hope I didn''t put any contradiction in my post...

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Well, since your so certain that we are no more than a continuing assembly of matter in a 4 dimensional space-time, you can be the very first one to step through the teleporter and discover that you are dead .sen

I think Lode''s right about the "identical twins" thing. Since they are two separate minds experiencing different things, they must have different consciousnesses(sp?). About the teleporter, I guess it''s impossible to tell if the recreated person (who is materially exactly the same as the original) is really the same person. (What does that even mean???)

Anyway I was thinking about something else. A large part of our brains is not "controlled" by us, such as the brain stem (autonomic nervous system). Does this mean consciousness is only involved in higher brain functions? Who''s to say which neurons are conscious and which are not? Or maybe consciousness is kind of a holistic thing (ie. it comes about through a huge number of neurons working together). This topic is very interesting.

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Apparently, they''ve figured out a way to get around the Uncertainty principle. It is possible to extract both the momentum and postion of a particle, but the act of doing so changes the momentum and position of the original particle so it no longer resembles the "copy".

So, at the far end, you get a perfect copy of yourself, while at the transmitter, you''d get a pile of mush as each atom in your body is randomized.

Getting people to use a transporter is going to be a real hard sell.

Korvan

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Original post by Tron3k
Also, has anyone read about people who had their left and right brain hemispheres split apart? It''s like two sentient beings emerge from one.

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I read a case study on one patient that had that procedure performed. The patient complained that his left side wouldn''t do the same thing as the right side.

Oh, but hey, it said the PATIENT was complaining, but which side of the brain is that? Hmm...

Why would you have your brain split apart? Thats disgusting. .sen

Isn't it also true that certain synapses strengthen their firings as stimuli continue repeatedly through those paths? Kind of like the brain progressively rewiring itself as time and experiences and thoughts take place along the existing paths?

Sorry, I'm getting off topic.

On the note on whether or not a re-materialized person would actually be the SAME person, I don't think it really matters WHERE the person re-materializes or WHAT atoms are used to re-materialize the person. The question is, would it work? Would whatever it is that drives our sentience stay connected and intact and active once the new body is formed? If so, it brings to mind some interesting questions.

Is the body a robot that determines its own behavior, but just needs a soul to drive its consciousness? If so, how do a I know a new soul doesn't inhabit my body every day? Noone else can tell the difference. Can I? Am I my brain or my soul? What is it that is really me?

I took a seminar on Personal Identity. One of the classic paradoxes was the teleporter that malfunctioned and didn't destroy the original body. A duplicate formed on the other side. Had it worked normally, the duplicate would have been accepted as the same person. But since it malfunctioned, which one is the same person? Naturally I'd say the body that failed to be destroyed is the same person, not the duplicate. Which is the opposite truth from what happens when the device actually works.

Hmm.

[edited by - Waverider on June 19, 2002 10:46:01 AM]

Probably the left side of his brain was complaining, because the left side controls language.

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Waverider: The robot idea is interesting. From the outside, a brain appears to be just a computer - receiving input and generating output. Is the fact that we "experience" feelings something from evolution? For example, we don''t like pain because we have evolved to avoid it. When you touch a hot kettle, you feel pain and immediately jerk back. Is there really such a thing as "pain", or is there simply a pathway linking the "pain nerves" to the muscle nerves that make your hand jerk back?

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