Full Sail?

I havnt graduated highschool yet

Hello, I just started final project. I don''t think that my $28k went to waste, and I''ve enjoyed every minute of it.

i havent actually been there or anything but i''ve heard full sail is basically a joke as far as the game dev course goes (although it''s supposedely good for graphics). They say Digipen is better...

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DirectX gives me a headache.

I attend CDIS game School and it''s awsome I was atually going to post a topic about my Life at CDIS.

kool

-Sage13

I think "real" universities will always be regarded as better for the sheer fact that specialized schools usually aren't accredited and go against the norm. As more of these type of schools pop-up and get accredited, they might start to gain better reputations.

That was speaking generally, of course. I don't know much about Full Sail or Digipen, but for $30K I would rather have a CS or SE degree and learn more than programming just for games.

I have a BS in CS, so I'm probably bias. Even though I feel that I taught myself more through hands-on experience, than 4 years of college did...I feel that I could work in any niche of the industry because I had a solid foundation in Algorithms, Programming, Architecture, Math and Software Engineering. Specialization should come after college, once you learned all the above...it shouldn't be part of undergrad learning. This is how Medical, Law and other post-graduate schools work, so why should CS be any different.

Games are a specialization in my opinion.



"Intelligence is proportionate to your reference base."

[edited by - Leathrewulfe on August 7, 2002 10:14:58 AM]

when i was interested in FullSail i did a lot of research on it, ive now decided to go to a regular university(last year of HS) and i think that they said that when u finish you get a BS in CS, i cant quite remember it was last year i as researching it, but i think you do get a degree so you dont have to go into games

,Matt

-= kill one your a murderer, kill thousands your a conquerer =-

The difference between Full Sail (maybe DigiPen?) and a standard University, is Full Sail actually gets straight to the point and drives the information into you. You go to a University and in 4 years, you learn a bunch of stuff that you dont need to know for game programming. Full Sail covers game specific things such as AI for games, OpenGL, DirectX, Networking for games, etc... Some of these are things you wont learn at a University and that you''ll have to learn on your own (at least, i think).

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In regards to such courses at normal universities, it depends where you're going. I start at the University of Guelph in Ontario, Canada in the fall and while I was browsing through their selection of CS courses, I saw that there's a third-year course (I think it's third year) in graphics programming. I don't know if you learn OGL or D3D or if you learn to program 3D graphics from scratch but it said that it does teach 3D graphics programming.

Of course, it's likely not as intensive nor as in-depth as it would be at Digipen or Full Sail, but it's better than nothing.

-Auron

[edited by - Auron on August 7, 2002 1:39:35 PM]

I''ve been to DigiPen for the Friday information meetings or whatever. From what i''ve heard and seen there, you really do get full CS training, it''s just a different name on the degree because you actually learn more, as said before, game specific stuff, the degree that you get is called Real Time Interactive Simulation, they say they actually teach more than the regular CS degrees and I do believe them. They have extra stuff that is cool to like console Development, they share a building with Nintendo and they have gotten the N64 dev kits to learn with, they also say that they should be getting Gamecube soon, they''re also in the process of getting accredited, the wait was becaues they had to wait for their first graduating class to even apply for accredidation, they''re expecting to hear soon on if they can or can''t get accredited though.

For a while, I''ve considered going to Digipen, but now I''ve decided against it. There are a few reasons:

1) It limits your career options! I suppose that if you are absolutely sure that you want to make games your WHOLE LIFE, this school is for you. But if you get a CS degree from one of the top colleges in the US (I''m a very ambitious person ) you can find other jobs that may be just as cool and even pay more. I would definitely hate to get stuck making database software for some shipping company, but if you get a master''s or a Ph.D in CS, you can do R&D work at major corporations and design next-generation graphics cards, operating systems, etc. And if you decide that you want to make games, I''m sure most companies would be glad to get someone with a masters in CS. As long as you make a good impression .

2) I think you can learn the things they teach at Digipen and Full Sail on your own. I''m certain that the majority of great game programmers did NOT come from these colleges, since they are fairly new. Digipen and Full Sail, however really can''t teach you all the things you learn in a thorough CS course. Believe me, I''ve researched this thoroughly, and those EE/CS/SE courses look very impressive.

3) The skills you learn at these schools really apply to the here and now. 5 years later, I''m sure that most of the practical knowledge you get at Digipen will be obsolete. A CS course is much more theoretical, so I bet it will remain valid a lot longer.

So yeah, this is why I decided not to go to Digipen. Personally, I think it would be a great experience, but not as valuable as a traditional CS course. If someone can prove me wrong about this, I''d be grateful cause I really would love to go to Digipen.

I''m unsure how many times I need to say this. It gets tiring when people ask the same questions and don''t search the forums. This topic has been talked about many times.

Both regular universities and "game" colleges have both benefits and downsides.

Regular colleges spend 4 years shoving theories down your throat. You achieve very little actual coding time, other than the class assignments most of which can be done in a couple hours. The rest of the time you’re sitting in front of a chalk board discussing things and being tested on paper. In my own opinion this is the most asinine way to test people ESPECIALLY in a computer related field. Silly things like syntax errors that a compiler would normally pick up turn into something that''s counted against your over all score. So by the time you graduate you can write a beautiful program on paper that might work in theory. But it''s fairly rare that you''ll be able to take that code and implement it with out running into problems. Not to mention that the speeds of some of these algorithms, and ADT''s are rarely discussed. So these students graduate with a great deal of knowledge, but for the most part a lot of the ideas need to be modified for use in the game industry, and none of it relates to the tools that are used in the industry such as visual C++, bounds checker, source safe, DirectX, OpenGL, 3d Studio Max, and the like.

Then you have the game specific colleges. These schools teach you the things you need to know to make a game such as DirectX, and OpenGL. They focus on teaching you the tools that are used in the industry such as Visual C++. You also get 1184+ hours of C++ coding experience during this time. So you learn how the compiler works, and how to write code that works (not just in theory). When you graduate you''ve got a few demos, the experience you''ve gained, and a degree. On the downside these colleges don''t spend as much time drilling the theories, ADT''s and algo''s into your head. Another downside is that the "programming tests" that companies hand out tend to be more targeted towards C.S. grads.

What you end up with are 2 college grads both qualified in their own right with little to no actual industry experience. The only level of separation you could earn at this point would be having a degree from one of the top CS schools. A degree from MIT would probably hold more weight than a degree from any game design school. On the other hand a game design degree might hold more weight than a CS degree from Mohegan Community College in Connecticut.

But that''s just a degree. There is more to getting a job in the game industry than just that. Were you able to take the "programming test" and pass it? I know a few companies who don''t accept anyone who gets less than an 85% on the test. After that it comes down to the interview. Do you fit in with their company? Did you ask the right questions? And even after that are you willing to move? Take a pay cut? And so on. To top it all off there are plenty of people with actual game industry experience that have been laid off from companies like E.A. over the past year and a half. You’re also competing with them.


Bottom line: It''s difficult to get into the game industry. Especially when you have no industry experiance. Don''t you can''t goto any school expecting that when you graduate your gaurenteed a job, because you''ll just be dissapointed when you don''t get one. It takes alot of determination, and alot of "extra" homework making contacts, getting information, and learning things they don''t teach you in class. It also takes good timing, and bit of luck. However it can be done.

As for anyone who''s graduated Full Sail and gotten a job, well that''d be me. I work as a software engineer at Red Storm Entertainment. So I''d hardly say the school was a "joke".

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Original post by micepick
For a while, I''ve considered going to Digipen, but now I''ve decided against it. There are a few reasons:

1) It limits your career options! I suppose that if you are absolutely sure that you want to make games your WHOLE LIFE, this school is for you. But if you get a CS degree from one of the top colleges in the US (I''m a very ambitious person ) you can find other jobs that may be just as cool and even pay more. I would definitely hate to get stuck making database software for some shipping company, but if you get a master''s or a Ph.D in CS, you can do R&D work at major corporations and design next-generation graphics cards, operating systems, etc. And if you decide that you want to make games, I''m sure most companies would be glad to get someone with a masters in CS. As long as you make a good impression .

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Limiting your options isn''t exactly a bad thing. Programmers are programmers, it doesn''t take much to move from "gaming" into another arena.

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2) I think you can learn the things they teach at Digipen and Full Sail on your own. I''m certain that the majority of great game programmers did NOT come from these colleges, since they are fairly new. Digipen and Full Sail, however really can''t teach you all the things you learn in a thorough CS course. Believe me, I''ve researched this thoroughly, and those EE/CS/SE courses look very impressive.

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Sure you can learn it on your own. However not in the time that either school offers. With out educated people around to answer questions for you "teaching yourself" becomes a very slow and frustrating process. And as you get older, well "time" isn''t exactly something that''s on your side. Because you''ll need to get a job to pay the bills, and then you''ll have less time to learn, and don''t forget the girlfriend, and your friends. Unless you dissassociate yourself from reality for around 8 years, it''s going to take you a long time.

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3) The skills you learn at these schools really apply to the here and now. 5 years later, I''m sure that most of the practical knowledge you get at Digipen will be obsolete. A CS course is much more theoretical, so I bet it will remain valid a lot longer.

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I honestly don''t see your point with this one. In 5 years everything will be different. New hardware advances will make alot of the theories and algo''s you''ve learned today either too slow or useless. It''s up to the programmer to keep up with technology after they''ve been educated.

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So yeah, this is why I decided not to go to Digipen. Personally, I think it would be a great experience, but not as valuable as a traditional CS course. If someone can prove me wrong about this, I''d be grateful cause I really would love to go to Digipen.

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A CS course from a good school is definately the way to go if you''ve got the time. And you want to experiance all that is college (Aka. the parties, and the girls, and the alchol, and the various other substances). But if you want to get down to the nitty gritty and are willing to sacrafice some of your life for 15 months at Full Sail or 2-4 years at Digipen it''s definately worth it in my opinion.

I for one will be going to a liberal arts school. I''m interested in CS, but it''s not my only interest. I want to be able to explore a variety of fields (though CS will be my major). If I leave with an International Relations degree instead, so be it. A trade school like FullSail wouldn''t give me that flexibility.

Stop dissing Mohegan Community College in Connecticut!

Original post by evaclear

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In 5 years everything will be different. New hardware advances will make alot of the theories and algo''s you''ve learned today either too slow or useless. It''s up to the programmer to keep up with technology after they''ve been educated.

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That''s just not true. How old do you think quicksort is? Or the idea of a heap-implementation of a priority queue? Come to think of it, how old is the C language? The only things that go out of date so quickly are the specifics like graphics APIs, or development tools.

As someone who went the ''traditional'' route, I picked up Direct3D and OpenGL fairly easily... but I see a lot of people on these forums who have programmed complete games but still don''t understand how to implement a linked list! Now, I''m not implying that Full Sail doesn''t teach data structures, just making the point that a firm grounding in theory is gonna serve you a lot better in the long run than a few hastily knocked-out demos using the cool technology of the moment. Because when prospective employers see the naivety of the source code, they may be reluctant to take you on.

[ MSVC Fixes | STL | SDL | Game AI | Sockets | C++ Faq Lite | Boost | Asking Questions | Organising code files ]

I completely agree with you, Kylotan. Being able to program is one thing, being able to know what your code is doing at the architecture level is a totally different thing. Code optimization is a cornerstone of a knowledgable programmer. I just don''t see how a 15 month program like Full Sail can focus on game development (e.g. Graphics API, Visualization) and still manage to cover in depth, important things like architecture and algorithms (and claiming that algorithms become antiquated like someone above mentioned, is like claiming that Calculus is ever-changing...not true.)






"Intelligence is proportionate to your reference base."

>>I just don''t see how a 15 month program like Full Sail can focus on game development (e.g. Graphics API, Visualization) and still manage to cover in depth, important things like architecture and algorithms<<

Probably because they don''t force you into a bunch of other random classes. Well rounded-ness aside, when it comes right down to it, if I look back at the classes I took in college and then subtract all the English, History, Bowling(!), and other junk that they make you take, then you''ll realize that in the end, you probably didn''t spend all that much time with game related stuff.

The sad, but very real truth, is that no amount of schooling will prepare you for the real world. The only thing that can is to take the classes in school and/or read some books on your own and then spend thousands of hours mucking around with it in your "spare time". In the end, a 15-month dedicated focus on game stuff will probably net you about the same amount of information as a few hours of classes a week for 4 years. Neither are enough to make you a seasoned pro, but they are enough to get you started. After that, you just gotta keep on goin'' full-steam ahead to really become experienced.

All in all, I''d personally go with the 15-month dedicated route, but that''s probably because I''m an old, crusty, learn-it yourself on the go kinda guy

-John

I agree with evaclear, computers are growing by leaps and bounds now, I think i''ve heard they''re working with DNA or something biological to be computers not too long from now, Biology is completely different from a computer, so who''s to say if biological computers quadruple our computing power and other stuff that everything wouldn''t have to be rewritten and redesigned to work with the new computers. I don''t think you could program a computer the same way if it were biological, so a new interface would be needed, thus rendering our current discoveries useless until someone comes up with a way to do the same thing with the new computers. One last thing, regular CS i agree is mostly theory and you do get ALOT of hands on experience actually writing code, I think going to a specialized school is better because you get practical experience.

I might be a little late for this, but I feel like saying it anyway. I think Full Sail is superior to Digipen. Digipen is a four year university that doesn''t cover all that Full Sail covers in 14 months. I recently made a game that was equivelent to one of Digipen''s final project, that is in SGD, one of the later courses at Full Sail''s Game Design degree. The thing is, we had three weeks. Those Digipen students had anywhere between a couple months and a couple years to get their project thought up, documented, and programmed.

I would say Full Sail is definatley the way to go if you want to quickly get into the Game Indsutry. The progression of computers is the whole idea behind the shorter program. The stuff you learn will not be outdated as quickly as if you were in a 4 year degree. The first two years of a 4 year degree are usually wasted on stuff that is either irrelevent or obsolete by the time you graduate.