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HELP! (please...)

Started by Minion Jun 8, 2000 at 4:54 PM 38 replies 4k views

Original Post

Jun 8, 2000 at 4:54 PM

Hello. I am a 13 year old trying to make it through a world with so many geniuses. It is definately not easy. All I see is people using MS Visual C++, Adobe Photoshop, 3D Studio Max, and so many other products that cost more than I can even comprehend. All I''ve managed to do is get Borland C++ 4.52 in a package (It doesn''t even have TASM), and Paint Shop Pro from a very supportive father. Even with what I''ve got, I have been, little by little, progressing. What I think it is that I need is some help from all of you experienced game programmers. I do have one book, Cutting Edge 3D Game Programming with C++. How many times I''ve read through it I don''t know. I just can''t understand this stuff. Actually, I have been making some progress. Finally I understand some of the math, which has been by far the hardest part. But I don''t know this sine and cosine triginometry stuff. If someone could point me to a place on the internet where I could not just see the formulas, but understand them. I think it was WitchLord who said it is important to understand the logic behind the formulas. But before I can do that I need to understand the math inside the formula. I don''t have money laying around that I could go by a book with. That''s why I have been so limited. This is something that I would be willing to work hard for. So could someone please help out a newbie? I''m sure some of you have been in my position. Thank you guys for your time, and I hope you can help me. Mark C. Ulrich webmaster_minion@yahoo.com ICQ: 9630369 http://www.thegamersheaven.bizland.com

Damon Clavuis

Jun 9, 2000 at 12:08 AM

Hi Minion,

Sounds like you have your work cut out for you. I am by no means an expert but have the advantage of University math education. I have found some sites on the net you may be interested in to help figure out the trig stuff. Here are a couple links...the first is to a general math site that looks pretty elementary, you probably know all this stuff but it does have some links you could follow. The second is to a site on trig.

http://www.fortunecity.com/millenium/garston/49/math.html
http://oakroadsystems.com/math/trig0.htm

If you want any help I''d be glad to lend a hand. So long as you do the same when you surpass my knowledge:-) I do have some old texts if that I could look up stuff in if you have specific questions. Or even scan pages and e-mail them to you as I only remember snippets of it...where DID my education go... :-)

E-mail me if you''d like grante@direct.ca.

Yes, everyone is out to get you!

Minion

Jun 12, 2000 at 2:12 PM

Thank you so much. I can''t tell you how much I appreciate your help. I just read the replies today and I am already beginning to understand all those formulas that I see with trig functions. Thanks again for all your help.

Mark C. Ulrich
webmaster_minion@yahoo.com
ICQ: 9630369
http://www.thegamersheaven.bizland.com

Dee

Jun 17, 2000 at 9:38 AM

I can teach what you want to know on C/C++
and some Visual C and DirectX

and some math since i''ve taken Algebra, Calculus, Finite, Physics..

Frag_Daddy_

Jun 17, 2000 at 9:51 AM

Oh man, they''ve explained it very well...but don''t forget about having taken arithmetic, Dee...

Anyways, I''ll extend the offer to help you, and I also have a website at

shockonline.homestead.com/openglgameprogramming.html

that has a lot of cool 3d stuff, OpenGL stuff, and a Quake level viewer (jees...sounds like an advertisement, huh?). Also, email me with any questions at Frag_Daddy_@hotmail.com and I''ll try to help you with stuff relating to OpenGL,3D,game programming,math, or other stuff.

PsYcHoPrOg

Jun 17, 2000 at 8:28 PM

You're thirteen? I don't mean to sound like a mean bastard, but what the hell do you think you're doing looking at 3d programming books? In seventh grade, you probably won't understand the 3d math at all. Go for the simple stuff first. If you don't know the basics of C/C++, then you shouldn't even consider LOOKING at a 3d programming book. Get a dummies book, and take off from there. That's what I reccomend. Once you get C++ down, get some 2d programming books, and go from there.

I'm 14 and I'm not even THINKING of touching a 3d book. Plus, I find 2d games superior and more fun to play anyway. heh. Well, good luck, and god speed

"Remember, I'm the monkey, and you're the cheese grater. So no messing around."
-Grand Theft Auto, London

"It's not whether I win or lose, as long as I piss you off"
-Morrigan, Super Puzzle Fighter II Turbo

Edited by - PsYcHoPrOg on June 17, 2000 9:32:15 PM

warpexplorer

Jun 20, 2000 at 10:39 PM

Hello. I''m 16 and I''m making a 3d engine too. My first attempt at a 3d engine was basicaly to see if it was acctually possible for a teenager that didnt know anything about 3d graphics to write a 3d engine. I didnt think i could but my dad said that it would be hard but i could do it. Well i impressed myself and came up with a very simple 3d wireframe engine within a week!(a very long week) It was very messy and it was written in basic (at that time i didnt know C++) but it proved that I could do it. I still dont know anything about DirectX or OpenGL but i learned alot of C++. Most of the math stuff I know(Im home schooled and i''ve been a year ahead in math for a while). Anyway I thought that since you seem to be working on the same thing I am that maybe we could help each other out. You can contact me at ICQ 2434022 or roundup@midrivers.com

By the way, if you want to do somthing and put your mind to it you can do just about anything. So dont get discouraged if it starts to get hard. Usualy putting your mind to it is harder than actually doing it.

-BacksideSnap-

Jun 21, 2000 at 12:59 PM

I''m 24 with a degree in Mechanical Engineering and I still have a hell of a time with math every now and then

Just keep pluggin away at the stuff, it''ll get easier, especially for you young ones. Wait til you start doing some linear algebra, oridinary differential equations and complex analysis in college. It''ll make all this 3D stuff look REAL easy.

Get acquainted with c/c++, but more importantly have fun while you''re doing it. I wish all of this stuff was around when I was your age (not that I''m THAT old).

-BacksideSnap-

Marsupial Rodentia

Jun 21, 2000 at 2:05 PM

13! Holy cow! I'm 25 with a degree in Computer Science, and I only wish I had started writing video games when I was that young! Best of luck to you.

Favorite books that I like to recommend:
Graphics Programming Black Book Special Edition
by Micheal Abrash
This is a thick book but fun to read. Abrash starts each chapter with a funny anecdote that makes the technical concepts more interesting. It'll tell you alot of stuff about Quake and about code optimazation. It has very little math but lots and lots of assembly language (I recommend that you don't read the code in the book, just read the text). Note that the book is also out of print. Many people think that the material is out dated, but I differ (This book has gotten alot of Game Programmers Started).

Beggining C++ (ANSI/ISO Edition)
by Ivor Horton.
This is a good C++ book for beginers. Note that Horton's Begining Visual C++ 6 Edition is also available. I think it's easier to read and it gets you started writing Windows applications (the ANSI/ISO Edition does not cover Windows, it is platform independent).

Algorithms (C++ Edition)
by Robert Sedgwick
Well, this one is a College Textbook so it is a little difficult to read (not as entertaining as Micheal Abrash), but it is very precise.

In addition, you may want to subscribe to some techincal magazines like:
C/C++ Users Jounal (www.cuj.com)
Game Developer (www.gdmag.com)
Dr. Dobbs Journal (www.ddj.com)

Note that "How to learn _______ in 24 hours" are entirely misleading! You can't learn any of this stuff overnight.

Edited by - Marsupial Rodentia on June 21, 2000 3:39:16 PM

Buster

Jun 21, 2000 at 2:07 PM

13! Damn I was trying to figure out how to make an Ultima-style game when I was 13. And you''re doing 3D stuff? Killer!

-BacksideSnap-

Jun 21, 2000 at 5:56 PM

Yeesh... He''s only 13, keep him away from that Sedgewick Algorithm book. I hate that damn book... I guess if I ever need to do a radix sort I''ll consult the thing. He shouldn''t have typedef''ed all of that stuff, it makes it a pain to follow along.

-BacksideSnap-

djsteffey

Jun 21, 2000 at 6:02 PM

I agree with ya Blackside......once they start working with differential equations and lineear algebra........they will beg to do easy stuff like 3d mathematics.......
I just finished up my last semester in math that I need at the university.........Linear Alegebra.........tough stuff

"Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time"
- Monty Python and the Holy Grail
themGames Productions

Minion

Jun 21, 2000 at 8:59 PM

Hi again. I just wanted to say thanks to you guys for all of your support. I appreciate it.

Mark C. Ulrich
webmaster_minion@yahoo.com
ICQ: 9630369
http://www.thegamersheaven.bizland.com

a2k

Jun 21, 2000 at 9:18 PM

i don''t suppose you''re related to anyone in metallica.

a2k

tcs

Jun 21, 2000 at 9:26 PM

Minion, I know a guy how learned OpenGL in two weeks, he was 13 as he learned it. He's the son of my physics teacher... he's now 14 and code's in real basic, java and c++. We work together to code a neuronal network for image analysis.... it took him about two weeks to implement the network on his own... So don't care about the age. When I was first messing around with cos/sin, all my friends thought about how much 25% of 10$ is. It's not about your age, it's about how much time you want to spend with it. I'm 17, and some of my friends start coding at this age. My other friend is 14 and learned c++ coding... you can start very early with all the stuff

That good books are soooo expensive is a real problem. Especially when you live in Germany, and only like English books... When you have a question, try to first use the search function of some message boards. Nearly all your questions have been asked before... an easy way to get fast & good answers.

you can also ask questions on my glVelocity message board...

Tim

--------------------------
www.gamedev.net/hosted/glvelocity
glvelocity.gamedev.net
www.glvelocity.com

Edited by - tcs on June 21, 2000 10:28:58 PM

bishop_pass

Jun 22, 2000 at 1:11 AM

Do yourself a big favor before you create something the wrong way. Learn some computer science concepts ''till you know them cold. Go to the bookstore and pull up a chair with a book on comp sci that will explain recursion and binary trees to you. You will and must learn pointers at the same time.

I stress again: Learn recursion and what the stack is doing. And don''t fall for the factorial! example.

Recursion is so basic and fundamental to simulation it is unbelievable.

Recursion can make some of the most complex and unwieldy problems elegant and easy to grasp and implement.

Here are just some of the things recursion solves:
Navigating a maze that branches
Simulating the growth of a tree.
Transforming articulated joints.
Subdividing surfaces into smaller parts of themselves.
Solving problems that are broken down into subproblems as applied to AI.
Generation of fractal landscapes.
Parsing and evaluation of expressions and computer languages.

Also:
Computing the contribution to something from something else that in turn relies on the contribution from something else. Two examples are radiosity and erosion of terrain.
Ray tracing.

I stress again: learn recursion and everything gets a lot easier.

Maitrek

Jun 22, 2000 at 5:04 AM

I''m just here to add my vote of confidence! Age has little to do with it, I''ve been programming since I was about 7 -> obviously starting out with the classic GW-BASIC and coded my first simple (hah - wireframe) 3D engine in BASIC when I was about your age. Now I''m sixteen (nearly seventeen - I feel the affects of aging badly here) in the final year of high school with lotsa knowledge of calculus, 3d geometry and other such stuff.
My advice to you - have fun, it''s pretty hard to be serious about coding at 13 and if all you remember of your coding childhood is hard work then you''ll never enjoy it when ur older.

If you ever have any questions about anything to do with coding just email me at:

reflux@biosys.net

I too only have borland c++ 5.0 (probably worse than 4.52 really due to it''s fiddly DPMI and windows support)

cow_in_the_well

Jun 22, 2000 at 5:41 AM

It doesn''t matter what age u are as long as you are willing to learn and don''t expect to be spoon fed information.

Looks like your got things under way minion...

most people use MSVC++ because its the standard and it compiles much faster code than borland...I really think its best to start with a 2d game, finish it then go onto 3d. 3d maths is pretty hard until u get the hang of it. but then again, if u do learn in now it will make school easy when u get to that level

Maitrek: making games is hard work, nomatter how good u are at it.

-----------------------------
-cow_in_the_well

http://cowswell.gda.ods.org/

Jeff Kistler

Jun 22, 2000 at 11:30 PM

3d math is not hard at all

You don''t really need to fully understand the math to use it in your code, but it certainly helps to. I wrote my first 3d stuff when I was 15 (i''m 16 now, so it was quite recently

), and I could''ve done it when I was much younger. I was just intimidated by all the math I encountered when I was looking through 3d coding documents. I was finally spurred into actually trying to do it by a friend betting me that I couldn''t do it

. I won the bet, and now I''m addicted to 3d coding (it''s really worse than smack!).
If it helps you any, you can purchase MSVC standard edition for around $40 with the academic pricing they have. I think there is another version which is even cheaper than often comes bundled with Learn C++ type things, but it has some sort of message box that it tags into every program you make with it.
-Jeff

Minion

Aug 1, 2000 at 2:07 AM

Hi.

Me again. Just got back from a monnth at my dads and decided to check for the latest follow-ups. Again, thank you guys for all the help. And no a2k, I''m not related to Lars Ulrich.

Mark C. Ulrich
webmaster_minion@yahoo.com
ICQ: 9630369
http://www.thegamersheaven.bizland.com

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