I just happened to think of something after talking about fatigue in another thread. I came up with a system whereby the people in your party got fatigued by wandering around carrying large amounts of items, thus making it realistic in the sense that you can''t walk around for 3 weeks without sleeping. However, this would be totally unnecessary in a game where there was no day or night. So then I got to thinking...some games have day and night, but I''ve never seen it implemented to its full potential. (Given I haven''t played as many games as you all have, and most of what I HAVE played was old NES/SNES stuff.) I''ve never seen a game where certain shops are closed at night, or some important NPC you need to talk to is asleep at night, or maybe some other important NPC you need to talk to is ONLY awake at night. (Maybe he''s an astronomer, or he likes to go out in his back yard and dance around naked casting spells.) Realistically, you could even have different critters that come out at night vs. what wanders around during the daytime. I mean if you''re gonna have night in your game, there should be advantages & disadvantages to both day and night, otherwise there''s no point in bothering to make the distinction at all. So then I happened to think...what about seasons? I''ve yet to see a pure RPG that has seasons either, or at least not graphically represented ones. (Simcity & Simfarm don''t count. ) Imagine if your magic system uses reagents, how hard it''s gonna be to find some herb in the winter. You may hafta go all the way to some southern city to find them still in stock or growing in the countryside. Maybe you hafta put on snowshoes to be able to travel fast in winter, or maybe you can even ski. Maybe you need to talk to some NPC who''s a shepherd but he goes to a warmer area whenever winter hits so his sheep don''t all die. Maybe various places have holidays during certain times of year, during which time some shops are closed but other shops sell celebratory items and people dance in the streets. Then I got to thinking...seasons would be great for strategy games as well. In the winter, your farms produce no food so you''d hafta hope you had enough stored up, or have holdings far enough south that food could still be grown and your armies wouldn''t starve. Traveling in snow could be difficult for some military units, and you could perhaps manufacture skis or snowshoes or somesuch to equip them with to make it easier. In the spring, some rivers could flood due to snowmelt, and not only be harder for your military units to travel across, but also possibly threaten your cities/military bases and population if you had them put in the wrong places. Perhaps in the hot summer some types of troops would fatigue easily and be much less useful on the field. Anyway, just a bunch of stuff to think about.

Oh yeah, I forgot to elaborate on my point! (*gasp* I actually have a POINT for once??? )

I think realism should be enhanced in a game only if it adds something to the game, not just for its own sake. There''s no point in making large amounts of items weigh you down and cause fatigue if you have no day and night. There''s no point in having day and night if there aren''t unique aspects of both. And there''s no point in having seasons if there aren''t different things each season permits and prohibits. Otherwise the fatigue is just a way to make life harder for the players (which will make them stop playing abruptly) and not for the sake of realism at all, and the day and night and seasons are just meaningless graphical drivel to make it all LOOK cool and not to enhance realism or gameplay.

(Note that my previous idea of fatigue as it relates to battle enhances gameplay in that mages and fighters become equally desirable to have in your party, and increases strategic possibilities. And you could STILL make some spells eat more fatigue for some mages than for others if you wanted to, HA! )

Gothic 1&2 had a good day/night cycle. it didn''t really add to the gameplay, but it added A LOT to the atmosphere of the game.
besides showing off the graphics engine, it made the world more believable.
during the day the people would go after their activities, then in the evening they would sit and talk at the fire or in the bar and the finally go to sleep. even the animals slept during the night (except the ones which just woke up to hunt)

the main character didn''t have to sleep though.



but seasons.... man that would be great! (for every game)

quote: Original post by onyxflame
I''ve never seen a game where certain shops are closed at night...

Breath of Fire 1 & 2

quote:
or some important NPC you need to talk to is asleep at night...

Breath of Fire 1 & 2 again

quote:
or maybe some other important NPC you need to talk to is ONLY awake at night.

You guessed it! Breath of Fire 1 & 2

quote:
Realistically, you could even have different critters that come out at night vs. what wanders around during the daytime.

Pokemon Gold & Silver

quote:
So then I happened to think...what about seasons? I''ve yet to see a pure RPG that has seasons either, or at least not graphically represented ones.

One of the GBC colour games

quote:
Maybe you need to talk to some NPC who''s a shepherd but he goes to a warmer area whenever winter hits so his sheep don''t all die.

Yup.

--------------------------------------------
Democracy may only be a few steps removed from anarchy, but at least it isn''t as loud.

I''ve played BoF 1 and don''t remember any of that stuff in it but then again my memory sucks.

At any rate this is stuff that isn''t very common in RPG''s, and I think it should be.

Realism should have a purpose. The more realistic a game is, the more complex it is. I''m not saying that complexity is bad, but if it is unfocused it can be distracting. For example, requiring the player-character to eat three meals a day, in a game that has nothing to do with everyday life, would force the player to spend time and attention on something that is not important to the game.

Realism could add to gameplay or immersiveness. The night cycle could have challenges that are not available during the day, such as monsters that only come out at night. As for immersiveness; when something is not realistic, it reminds me that I am playing a game. I''m drawn out of the game world and reminded of the real world by the discrepancies between the two.

In Zelda 64, a lot of shops aren''t open at night. I''ve seen the same thing in really old games too from the early 90''s.

James Simmons
MindEngine Development
http://medev.sourceforge.net

quote: Original post by neurokaotix
In Zelda 64, a lot of shops aren''t open at night. I''ve seen the same thing in really old games too from the early 90''s.

I personally don''t see why you would want that in your game though. It just makes the gamer pissed off that he/she must wait another hour for day/night to begin so that they can get into that area.

In my opinion, having day and night in computer does not affect gameplay benefitially (other than introducing some diversity of the environment artistically).


Rob Loach
Current Project: Go Through Object-Oriented Programming in C++ by Robert Lafore

"Do or do not. There is no try."
- Yoda

I agree that realistic features that don''t improve the gameplay in some way have no business being there, but I''ve tried to give examples I think would make it worth putting in. Certainly if day/night wouldn''t affect the plot of an RPG positively you shouldn''t include it though.

I doubt I''d play a game where you had to eat 3 meals a day either, however if I''m gonna play a game where you need to eat at *some* point I''d prefer it to have a variety of food items to choose from rather than the generic "is it bread or is it meat" badly drawn food item. Having various types of food give different nutritional values would be going a bit TOO far though, unless it''s some digital pet thing.

Personally I think having shops that open at different times would add a small strategic element, or at least not be annoying enough to make me quit playing. In fact I see nothing wrong with having a walled city whose gates you can''t pass at night (unless you climb over), if the city is in a war-torn area where any night-time traveler may be an enemy or a spy. However, if you''re gonna have shops closed at night you should give the player something advantageous about this, such as being able to talk to the shopkeepers in a social setting rather than purely professional, or being able to see a sleazy floorshow in a tavern or somesuch.

As for the seasons I honestly can''t think of anything bad about them in terms of plot development. In fact I can think of any number of possible plots that use seasons...the one that comes to mind right now is have an evil wizard who intends to cast a spell at a certain time of year when the signs are right, and you need to go on this big quest comprising several mini-quests in order to gain the power to stop him from doing it. (Sort of like Sword of Truth, so you couldn''t make that be the main goal of your game heh.) Currently a lot of games where they put you on a time limit (i.e. certain parts of FF3) it seems rather artificial, just put in there to give you a challenge but for no other discernable reason that makes any sense.

Harvest Moon had shops that werent open at night and certain animals came out at night as well. Events also took place during day and night so it was a kinda realistic game.