To the first anon poster:

Just because a few good games come along doesn''t justify the crap that comes with it. Yes, Fallout was, and still is a great RPG. In fact, on the box (did you buy it?), it states that it is "the most true to table-top RPGs yet" CRPG. This is one of the reasons why it is so great: it''s actually labeled an "RPG", and lives up to it. It''s not an action title with character stats and exp, which is what most "CRPGs" really are.

What Landfish was trying to say (I think, don''t hate me if I missed something) is that most CRPGs are just like the last one, with a different story, different characters you play as, and possibly a few "unique features". Hell, Final Fantasy went from you creating a character to set story-driven characters. I love both 1(NES) and 2(SNES), but 2 is less an RPG than it is a "story adventure".

BTW, stating your opinion (or whining, whatever you want to call it) is the point of message boards, and if you can''t handle others'' opinions, I suggest you leave.

Traditional RPG''s are a reason to party. A group of fairly like minded people (usually friends)get together and enjoy each other''s company. Sort of like a friday night poker game. It''s exactly the same, including getting drunk/stoned and ordering pizza.

MMORPG''s aren''t parties, in that typically like minded people are there for different reasons. Some want to role play and some want to level-up, and some just want to socialize. Some want the shiny gee-gaw and some want to annoy other people in attention grabbing moments of pure mahem. And a lot want cybersex, I imagine (since that''s always been a prevalent theme of the MOOs.

In a tradional setting, players want to role play their characters (even if they want to power-level) because a third party referee rewards them for doing so. In MMORPG''s players are automatically rewarded by the system and everyone''s advancement rates are exactly the same. Everyone can attain the same levels, everyone can get the shiny gee-gaw and everyone can be annoying. I do honestly think that the GM/DM/Ref is the critical missing element of MMORPG''s. A skilled GM, who is creative, adaptive, clever, smart and thoughtful (which, I have had the honor of knowing several) can do more to entertain a group of people in one evening than EverQuest can provide in a month.

And, because it''s RPG and there really aren''t "reality" limits set on the players because of limitations defined by the system, they can perform tasks of daring do. Not so, in MMORPG''s. You can''t swing from the chandeliers, dress up like a (ugly) woman to fool the guards, diffuse the bomb, confuse the orcs and rescue a lady(or fella) in distress. All MMORPGs are basically exactly the same, just with different feature sets defined. Whack the monster. If you''re better than the monster, you win. If you''re worse than the monster, you die. If you win, you progress. If you lose, you get set back a bit. Also, all content has to be molded for the lowest (and youngest) common denominator, which, IMHO really really WRECKS MMORPGs. It''s like fighting the monsters at disney land. If you use naughty language, a sentinel or whatever will quickly remind you of the usage policy!

Vampire:The Redemption recently came out and I''ve been curious as to what people''s reactions are to it''s "StoryTeller" capability. Re-introducing the GM as arbiter and crafter of the player experience is a unique idea and I wonder if it will help breath new life in the CRPGs or if it''s just another gimmicky thing that still delivers a flat and uninteresting experience for the players. Neverwinter nights also looks potentially like it could provide a lot of spice. I do think that people will Role Play, as long as there''s a reason to do it. As long as Role playing is actually the goal and not trying to survive within an arbitrarily defined system of advancement.

Landfish, yeah I know what you mean I think. You begin the topic very strongly to induce oposition. You make a statement that gets people''s attention, and gets them riled up. That''s good, but some people fail to realize that there''s a point behind the blatant statement. I''m not saying you should tone down your post at all. That''s what a debate is all about. People should just realize the actual point. Admittedly, when I saw that you said RPG''s suck...I thought, "What the hell is Landfish talking about now?". Then as I read on I realized that you were tallking about developers holding on to systems without ever second-guessing them.

Lies. ALL LIES!!!!!

i agree. rpgs suck. mmorpgs are a lot better, but they need to be improved a lot. i''m going to quit ultima online because you''re character never lives more than two weeks without being PKed or killed by a monster. its too bad that mmorpgs arent free...

Naz: Scary, You just deconstructed my whole method of getting responses. Use it wisely. I know I haven''t, and that''s what makes threads like this little piece of crap.

I wonder if it''s possible to make a free MMORPG? I can think of a way, but it would operate off of advertising, which is shallow and not worth it. Anyone else?

I''ll just quick rehash my thought''s on stats again. They were bad for pen/paper but effective for Crpg''s. The main reason is the IQ/INT stat. In pen and paper this one stat discouraged role playing but on the computer meduim it has a use (until we''re all using microphones over the net).

I also play a tonne of crpg''s and I love them and hate them.

I don''t think that rpg''s have to be story based either. The RPG is a 100% character and role driven theme. The story is purely cosmetic.

I like the idea of having an online DM/GM, but this person would have to have considerable control of the game with very inovation designed tools. Sort of like a cross between Dungeon Master and SimCity. Just an idea ;-)

Damn! I''m too placid this morning.I''ll think of something i hate then come back, [evil sniger]

- WE are their... "Sons of the Free" -

Will people please stop pretending that there are set definitions of what an RPG is or isn''t? Frankly, the genre is too varied in the artistic sense, while too constrictive in implementation to be defined by any means! And even then, what does definition get you? Nothing.

I''m getting impatient with these "RPGs". If you guys seem to love them so much, why not go and make some good ones? After all, this is GameDez.net, right? How hard could it be?

LOL.. this is a good one Landfish. You said you wanted some opposition ;p

First of all, what is an RPG? what role do you play? You play the role of the character in a CRPG. It works two ways with that acronym. Computer RPG, and Character RPG You''re playing the role of something you cannot. We know computers are not boundless like the human mind. And we''ve accepted this, well.. most of us, anyways. The computer is stuck in a set number of things. Size of HDD, memory, speed of system.. etc. They all control how well the story can be portraied! So then, a CRPG is one of limited possiblities currently. This is an accepted standard. What we attempt to do is take it to a very good level, as best we can.

Example: cars. The first car was crap. It had NO suspension, and wooden tires. The engine produced a measly 2.5 horsepower (i think.. not sure here) and it had only one gear if i''m correct This seems like crap! Yet back then.. it was the best they had. And cars grew. The brakes got better, the suspension got much better, computerized optimal handling, sensors, circuits, relays. Sit the two next to eachother and they''re impossible to tell how the hell one relates to the other. They both have four wheels and some kinda door.. maybe even a trunk! That''s ALL. Yet they''re still CARS, we don''t call them anything else. They''re evolving still today. Many people don''t care about their cars. How many saturns do you see on the road? their POS!! Yet.. they''re still cars. I mean, i''d lump Saturn, Kia, Deawoo and probably even Ford and Chevy for the most part into one lump of "Crap cars" and then i''d put things like Honda, Toyota, BMW, etc.. into "good cars".
Cars do have breakdowns. Sports cars, luxury cars, compact, mid-size, full-size, SUV, trucks! All of them based on SEVERAL elements!!!
So perhaps the RPG world is lacking a breakdown. Maybe we should start putting them in different categories. Stat-RPGs, Skill-RPGs, Level-RPGs, Linear, non-linear, 3d, Isometric. We do the last bit.. but not the first? Come on Landfish.. make us some catch phrases or Buzz-words to associate with Statistics-based-RPG. SRPG? StRPG? and for Skill based, SkRPG? or since stats and skills go hand in hand, perhaps SRPG for the both of em? and LRPG for level-based?

The only REAL RPG is LARP. Live Action Role Playing. nothing beats a good LARP But in that YOU actually PLAY a role. You don''t sit in a chair and relay messages about what you think your character is doing, you actually DO THEM! therefore, table-top RPG is just as false as CRPG and MMORPG. The only real RPG is LARP, and simulated RPG is VLARP, Virtual Live Action Role Play! That''s right.. computerized worlds in which you virutally LARP! that''s a "real" RPG.
So now that we''ve attack the RPG name.. let''s see how this matters to us. IT DOESN''T! the industry believes in certain things with RPGs, and that''s it. The term is dead. It''s like the word GAY. It USED to mean happy, now it means "homosexual"!!! i mean, WTF? And think about it.. it''s happened to a LOT of things. buzz-words are everywhere, and they all suck! So forget it, Landfish. Try something else instead. Create your own catch-phrase for what you believe it to be, and get the industry to stop humpin the back of the term they already killed! (homocidal necroverbiac, perhaps? ) My friend actually has his own term for MMORPGs that he''s trademarked already And i get to use it cause he''s part of my company.. hehe. And no, i won''t tell you what it is ;p
So.. go forth and give us the term which describes what you want landfish. Don''t complain that they''ve screwed up the old term. Simply give them a new term, and tell them what it really means. I mean, hell.. how many people think the new millenium has already begun!?!?!

J

I don''t personally care if anybody makes RPGs, but the whole concept of just stopping all development because some guy said something is quite hilarious...