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Wind Power

Started by LessBread 42 replies 1.6k views
Original Post
LessBread
LessBread
The energy future belongs to wind - I can't say it any better than this:
quote:
The energy future belongs to wind. The world energy economy became progressively more global during the twentieth century as the world turned to oil. It promises to reverse direction and become more local during the 21st century as the world turns to wind, wind-generated hydrogen, and solar cells. Wind and wind-generated hydrogen will shape not only the energy sector of the global economy but the global economy itself. ... Advances in wind turbine design since 1991 allow turbines to operate at lower wind speeds, to harness more of the wind's energy, and to harvest it at greater heights -- dramatically expanding the harnessable wind resource. Add to this the recent bullish assessments of offshore wind potential, and the enormity of the wind resource becomes apparent. Wind power can meet not only all U.S. electricity needs, but all U.S. energy needs. ... Wind is popular because it is abundant, cheap, inexhaustible, widely distributed, climate-benign, and clean -- attributes that no other energy source can match. The cost of wind-generated electricity has dropped from 38¢ a kilowatt-hour in the early 1980s to roughly 4¢ a kilowatt-hour today on prime wind sites. Some recently signed U.S. and U.K. long-term supply contracts are providing electricity at 3¢ a kilowatt-hour. Wind Force 12 projected that the average cost per kilowatt hour of wind-generated electricity will drop to 2.6¢ by 2010 and to 2.1¢ by 2020. U.S. energy consultant Harry Braun says that if wind turbines are mass-produced on assembly lines like automobiles, the cost of wind-generated electricity could drop to 1-2¢ per kilowatt hour. ... Wind power is now a viable, robust, fast-growing industry. Cheap electricity from wind makes it economical to electrolyze water and produce hydrogen. Hydrogen is the fuel of choice for the highly efficient fuel cells that will be used widely in the future to power motor vehicles and to supply electricity, heating, and cooling for buildings. Hydrogen also offers a way of storing wind energy and of transporting it efficiently by pipeline or in liquefied form by ship. ... For energy investors, growth in the future lies with wind and the hydrogen produced with cheap wind-generated electricity. Solar cell sales are growing at over 30 percent a year and are likely to supply much of the electricity for the 1.7 billion people who are still without electricity, most of them living in villages in developing countries. But solar cells are still too costly to supply the vast amounts of energy required to power a modern economy. ... Blowing In The Wind
Of course, the blow hards in Congress can always be counted on to do the wrong thing...
quote:
n the last week of July the Senate resumed consideration of sweeping energy legislation that has been widely criticized by consumer and environmental advocates. Senators face a crucial decision: Do they listen to the voters and take the health of the economy into account? Or will $21 million worth of campaign contributions from corporate utilities do the talking? ... On July 29 the debate turned to the bill's controversial electricity provisions. Under heavy pressure from within his own caucus, Energy and Natural Resources Committee Chairman Pete Domenici, (R-N.M.), introduced a new draft of the bill's electricity title. But his amendment still sells consumers short by repealing the Public Utility Holding Company Act (PUHCA), a vital electricity consumer and investor protection. Congress created PUHCA to prevent multistate electricity companies from investing ratepayer money in risky schemes that do not contribute to the delivery of affordable and reliable energy. PUHCA was also designed to prevent a single company from controlling electricity, telecommunications, water and other essential services. It is based on the simple notion that convergence stifles competition and consumer choice, and can lead to poor service and higher bills. Repealing PUHCA will encourage these same utilities to replicate Enron's complex corporate structure, making it easier for companies to hide debt from shareholders and raise prices for consumers. Domenici's amendment would therefore result in the dominance of U.S. electricity markets by just a handful of mega-utilities that could use their dominance to raise prices across the board. ... Big Energy Grab Bag
Above board corporate subsidies are one thing, but government bailouts brought about by corporate fraud are another thing all together. This is how they plant the seeds for future bailouts... Given the contrast of the bright energy future described in the first article, it's clear that there's a terrible lack of vision and leadership in Congress these days, if not a rotting corruption... [edited by - lessbread on August 3, 2003 3:14:34 PM]
"I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes." - the Laughing Man
Rob Loach
Rob Loach
I heard about something called Fuel Cell Technology that uses hydrogen in engines. Anybody else hear anything about this?

Or does Fuel Cell Techonolgy deserve a "welcome to ten years ago" reply? I just heard about it a week ago.

[edited by - Rob Loach on August 3, 2003 3:26:27 PM]
Rob Loach [Website] [Projects] [
LockePick
LockePick
quote:
I heard about something called Fuel Cell Technology that uses hydrogen in engines. Anybody else hear anything about this?

quote:
Cheap electricity from wind makes it economical to electrolyze water and produce hydrogen. Hydrogen is the fuel of choice for the highly efficient fuel cells that will be used widely in the future to power motor vehicles and to supply electricity, heating, and cooling for buildings. Hydrogen also offers a way of storing wind energy and of transporting it efficiently by pipeline or in liquefied form by ship.

And yes, welcome to years ago (although I have no idea how many years).
dede
dede
quote:
Original post by Rob Loach
I heard about something called Fuel Cell Technology that uses hydrogen in engines. Anybody else hear anything about this?

Fuel Cells technology have been around and will always be around for all kinds of fuel. Its usually higher end, and is common among race cars. IMHO, thats where they'll stay, as well.

Hydrogen for consumers will look exactly how gas looks now. It'll be a liquid poored into your gas tank. It doesn't help the environment much, just like electric cars, it just moves the pollution around. Of course, if we move the pollution to someplace where no one is affected it might be ok. If we move pollution away from vallies and large cities, like Denver, New York or LA, then it can eliminate smog all together. Besides the pollution thing, there's also the eliminating the need for crued oil, since anyone can manufacture it, including the gas stations themselves.


To prevent threadjacking, Wind is a good form of eletricity, but it uses a lot of space, and its not as dependable as coal, hydrolic or nuclear power.

That is interesting tho, instead of using Wind power to power our houses, a real time all the time need, use it to power our cars. Who cares if we don't produce Hydrogen between 12:00am - 4:00am because the winds die down, as long as we have enough when we goto the gas station. That is actually a pretty good application.
~~~~~
"Heh; yeah, that's probably a bad sig to end all your posts with." -23yrold3yrold
Download and play Slime King I.

[edited by - dede on August 3, 2003 3:53:19 PM]
Raduprv
Raduprv
I think that the solar energy is better. I mean, despite it''s high initial cost, you can install it on your roof, and have fun.
Eolian generators are nice too, since they are less expensive, and can generate more power, but if there is little or no wind in your area, they are usless. Also, a strong storm might dmage them, etc. But yes, humans should rely on non polluting energy sources, since the pollution is teh suck! (I hate the smog here).

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GKW
GKW
Wind won''t work in a lot of places because there just isn''t enough of it to reliably generate power. Minnesota has a lot of wind generation in the northwest part of the state where the average daily wind is quite high. The rest of the state just isn''t that good for wind. I would go with orbital solar power or nuclear with a space elevator so we can get rid of the waste in the sun. Though both options would be incredibly expensive.

"... we should have such an empire for liberty as she has never surveyed since the creation ..."
Thomas Jefferson
"... we should have such an empire for liberty as she has never surveyed since the creation ..."Thomas Jefferson
Raduprv
Raduprv
quote:
Original post by dede
Hydrogen for consumers will look exactly how gas looks now. It'll be a liquid poored into your gas tank. It doesn't help the environment much, just like electric cars, it just moves the pollution around.



Sure, dihydrogen monoxide is VERY toxic, and should be avoided at all costs.

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[edited by - Raduprv on August 3, 2003 4:04:01 PM]
Arion
Arion

Yes, there have been great advances in the technology. How efficient is the energy storage from electrolysis ? I had always been waiting for a breakthrough in battery technology but alas it has not come to pass.

The company that produces those huge wind turbines is planning on making them larger and larger. I believe it was mentioned that the size would have a full span of a football field. Don''t know if that was a Canadian or American football field.

Yann L
Yann L
quote:
Original post by dede
Fuel Cells technology have been around and will always be around for all kinds of fuel. Its usually higher end, and is common among race cars. IMHO, thats where they''ll stay, as well.


Uhm, I think you misunderstood what a fuel cell is... A fuel cell is an electrical power generator. It uses a proton exchange membrane, often a form of synthetic polymere, that will separate the electrons from the protons in hydrogene. Essentially ionizing it. It typically is build in sandwich form: two electrodes outside, the exchange membrane inside. Hydrongene flows over the first electrode, oxygene over the other. Now, the hydrogene will split into an electron and a proton, the proton will walk through the membrane, but the electron is blocked. The ionized hydrogene will create a water molecule with th oxygene on the other side, but needs the electron to do so. Thus, the electron takes the way through an external electrical circuit, in order to reach the other electrode.

Basically, you have a hydrogene powered battery. The only exhaust gas created by a fuel cell is water. Fuel cells can be used anywhere where electricity is needed: including, but not limited to electric cars. Even laptops and cell phones could be fitted with a small fuel cell battery.

Back on topic: wind energy is definitely an important development to get away from oil. Especially offshore systems are highly intertesting. But I''m still fascinated by the idea of harnessing nuclear fusion one day.
dede
dede
quote:
Original post by Raduprv
Sure, dihydrogen monoxide is VERY toxic, and should be avoided at all costs.

haha, oh wait, how do you extract the hydrogen from the H20, or what do you do with the monxide left behind? Could it possibly form Carbon Monxide? Is there possible side effects from the process? What about leaked hydrogen?
quote:

quoted by USA Today
Because hydrogen readily travels skyward, the researchers estimated that its increased use could lead to as much as a tripling of hydrogen molecules — both man-made and from natural sources — going into the stratosphere, where it would oxidize and form water.

"This would result in cooling of the lower stratosphere and the disturbance of ozone chemistry," the researchers wrote, resulting in bigger and longer-lasting ozone "holes" in both the Arctic and Antarctic regions, where drops in ozone levels have been recorded over the past 20 years. They estimated that ozone depletion could be as much as 8%.


Nope, nothing to worry about here. Its totally pollutionless!

Yann L.
Clicky.
Yeah, maybe a gasoline fuel cell is different than a hydogen fuel cell. I''ve gotta do more reading about it. Cars arn''t my thing.

~~~~~
"Heh; yeah, that''s probably a bad sig to end all your posts with." -23yrold3yrold
Download and play Slime King I.
Raduprv
Raduprv
quote:
Original post by dede
quote:
Original post by Raduprv
Sure, dihydrogen monoxide is VERY toxic, and should be avoided at all costs.

haha, oh wait, how do you extract the hydrogen from the H20, or what do you do with the monxide left behind? Could it possibly form Carbon Monxide? Is there possible side effects from the process? What about leaked hydrogen?



Dihydrogen monoxide _IS_ H2O
You extract the hydrogen out of it via electrolisys(sp?). And what about the leaked hydrogen? Hydrogen is non toxic, and it won''t even stay there, it will always go up.

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Cestps
Cestps
Wind energy blows (No pun intended). The energy future belongs to nuclear power. The only reason we''re not using it as much as we can is that the politicians (Where did they come from anyway? Dictature is the way to go!) don''t dare to build more powerplants, because if they did, they''d lose votes, because most voters are stupid old hags @ 60+ and they think nuclear power is dangerous just because there were a few meltdowns like 20 years ago. Nuclear is the least harmful power source relative to the energy gained, so VOTE SADDAM FOR THE ONE AND ALMIGHTY RULER OF THE UNIVERSE AND BUILD MORE NUCLEAR POWERPLANTS!!!! Some people are just too stupid.
Abnormally large and solar energy charged!
dede
dede
quote:
Original post by Raduprv
Dihydrogen monoxide _IS_ H2O
You extract the hydrogen out of it via electrolisys(sp?).


You''re almost there! now lets look at electrolysis. The first part is from electricity. Which, although can be from non-renewable resources, it usually doesn''t. Electricity mostly comes from nuclear, natural gas and coal power plants. They polute.
Where will the electricity for the electrolysis of water come from? Right now, about 68 percent of the electricity produced in the United States comes from coal or natural gas from howstuffworks.com.
quote:

And what about the leaked hydrogen? Hydrogen is non toxic, and it won''t even stay there, it will always go up.

Saying this is as asinine as saying things you throw into the garbage disappear.

Yes, Hydrogen is non-toxic, so is CO2. It''s not its toxicity I''m worried about. If you read the quote from USA Today I posted, you''d see the possible side effects that can come from all the H2 going ''up''.

~~~~~
"Heh; yeah, that''s probably a bad sig to end all your posts with." -23yrold3yrold
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Yann L
Yann L
quote:
Original post by dede
Yann L.
Clicky.
Yeah, maybe a gasoline fuel cell is different than a hydogen fuel cell. I've gotta do more reading about it. Cars arn't my thing.


Hehe, did you actually read the text you linked to ? I think this is a prime example of a name clash. In your Nascar text, a fuel cell is simply a gas tank

The fuel cells we are talking about, are electrochemical devices to generate electricity. Little difference For more info, check out this site. Should clear it up.

quote:

haha, oh wait, how do you extract the hydrogen from the H20, or what do you do with the monxide left behind? Could it possibly form Carbon Monxide? Is there possible side effects from the process? What about leaked hydrogen?


Uhm. If you extract H2 from H2O, you are left with O. That's atomic oxygen, which will quickly recombine to O2. Hardly toxic

quote:

You're almost there! now lets look at electrolysis. The first part is from electricity. Which, although can be from non-renewable resources, it usually doesn't.


You got that backwards

Anyway, the point of this thread was to suggest using wind power, or other renewable energy sources to create the hydrogen...


[edited by - Yann L on August 3, 2003 5:36:38 PM]
ChaoticCanuck
ChaoticCanuck
quote:

You''re almost there! now lets look at electrolysis. The first part is from electricity. Which, although can be from non-renewable resources, it usually doesn''t. Electricity mostly comes from nuclear, natural gas and coal power plants. They polute.
Where will the electricity for the electrolysis of water come from? Right now, about 68 percent of the electricity produced in the United States comes from coal or natural gas from howstuffworks.com.



You know, you are actually quite correct. However you have overlooked the BIGGEST flaw in your argument; this thread started off discussing one viable form of renewable energy; add solar power collection, and other forms of clean(er) energy, and you have an abundant source of energy for performing electrolysis.

To address your concerns over hydrogen leakage, you could design the Hydrogen Fuel cell as a rechargable closed cell.

Rather than adding hydrogen each time you fill up, the "fuel cell" would become a rechargeable battery; when the cell has been drained of useable activity then you connect it to a charging device which would reverse the process; the fuel cells will be larger and more complex, but the end result will be a *MUCH* cleaner method than using modified fossil fuels.

Hell, according to one of my friends it wouldn''t be too hard (Although not nearly cost-effective [yet]) to increase the viscosity of vegetable oils to replace the fossil fuel based lubricants.

dede
dede
quote:
Original post by Yann L
Anyway, the point of this thread was to suggest using wind power , or other renewable energy sources to create the hydrogen...

Sorry, I''m not having a good day, and am taking it out on everyone.

Anyways, the electrical generating capacity will have to approximately double because all of the energy for transportation that currently comes from oil will have to be replaced with electrically generated hydrogen.

Could we build enough windmills to supply the USA with enough electricity to convert over from fossil fuels to Hydrogen? That is one thing that isn''t covered in the article. Less than 3% of our power currently comes from wind. We''d have to build 33 times the amount of wind mills for this plan to work. Does the US have enough suitable property to allow for this?

~~~~~
"Heh; yeah, that''s probably a bad sig to end all your posts with." -23yrold3yrold
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alexmoura
alexmoura
I would have assumed that hydrogen concentration wouldn''t be a ig issue - I though that it actually tends to combine naturally with oxigen (I''m probably wrong there though - if I''m right, though, a large leak of it might cause people in the area to get abit wet and then suffocate)
The main issue I see with hydrogen is actually safe transportation/storage - independently of american movies it is not common for a gas tank to explode, but with an hydrogen tank, specially in liquid high pressure form it sounds like a totally different issue
Anyway, it''s good to see wind usage - it''s not perfect, it''s not that reliable (curiously enough using them to produce hydrogen makes them a lot more reliable, since you can storage it, and just care about average wind over a while) but it does decrease fossil fuel consumption, and it''s one source that is not likely to disappear in the future. And personally, I actually like the windmills aesthetically wise - it''s extremely cool to just stand under one - the blades are quite large, and between the noise of them passing a few meters above your head and the sheer size of the thing, it makes you want to get out of there.

"I woke up sweating and clutching my pillow. Thankfully the powerful and reassuring visage of Optimus Prime staring back at me from my pillow case served to ease my frayed nerves. Like the giant robotic father I never had he always knows just what to say" - Gabe, Penny-Arcade

Alexandre Moura
Raduprv
Raduprv
I don''t think that hydrogen tanks explode. They need oxygen. On the other hand, oxygen tanks are MUCH worse. They are walking bombs. And the hydrogen won''t combine with the oxygen (in the air) unless it burns. otherwise it will go up and up the atmosphere, and then some of it even leaving the earth.
ChaoticCanuck
ChaoticCanuck
No one would argue that all energy needs should or would be met by one source of energy. That would be foolish; by diversifying energy production you stimulate the desire to research and develop new methods of collection nature. The "production" of energy is silly because there is abundant energy in nature, we just have to find ways to harness it.

Hydroelectricity has a large initial ecological impact, and minimal after that. Solar power, and wind power have much lower initial impacts (mostly the actual production of the equipment used). Storage of the energy can be accomplished through virtually any number of means, but as was mentioned above, using hydrogen fuel cells would be a great, low-impact method of doing so.

The US may not have as many "suitable" sites, but I know that Canada does; Solar power is most efficiently collected in very low temperatures. I don''t understand the physics behind this, but it was stated repeatedly in several articles when I was researching solar power as a source for energy in poor nations. By eliminated waste of energy and exploiting the "free" energy out there there is no reason that we can dramatically reduce our dependance on fossil fuels.

The economic impact of this is not as severe as the oil companies would have us beleive either; like so many other technical revolutions it is not the elimination of a market sector, merely a market shift. Fossil fuels will still be important for other uses, but not nearly as critical.
alexmoura
alexmoura
quote:
Original post by Raduprv
I don''t think that hydrogen tanks explode. They need oxygen. On the other hand, oxygen tanks are MUCH worse. They are walking bombs. And the hydrogen won''t combine with the oxygen (in the air) unless it burns. otherwise it will go up and up the atmosphere, and then some of it even leaving the earth.


The thing is, to keep the hydrogen in a liquid form (otherwise you''ll really need an suv to actually carry a tank with enough hydrogen to drive around), it has to either be with quite low temperatures, or quite a high pressure or a combination of both - in any case, in a crash, you have to deal with a possible warming of the container (either from other fires, leaks that ignite, or a loss of the cooling system)causing an explosion (like a gas canister)

"I woke up sweating and clutching my pillow. Thankfully the powerful and reassuring visage of Optimus Prime staring back at me from my pillow case served to ease my frayed nerves. Like the giant robotic father I never had he always knows just what to say" - Gabe, Penny-Arcade

Alexandre Moura

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