Or are computer games not quite as fun as they used to be? How come I spend more time on my PC playing old classics like mario and Zelda and of course street fighter 2 even though I could be playing jedi knight 2 or even doom 3? Am I just a nostalgia freak, or are these jump and run 2-d cartoonish games genuinely more fun then these new 3d monsters? Im not saying games are crap, but they certanly are not what they used to be, however I have a few tips for game developers that might be able to bring back some of that old magic... 1. NO MORE INTROS. This phenomonen started back in the days of the Sega mega-CD, as a way to show off the FMV capabilities of the machine, however for some reason this phenomonen has continued to today. Why? Nobody watches them. Nobody cares about them. The waste gigs of disk space and I can never seem to bash the right key to skip the bloody things. 2. BRING BACK 2D. I''m not saying 3D games are bad, or wrong. No. Vice City is one of the most enjoyable games ive ever played. But so is Final Fight. With the power of todays machines, 2D graphics could easily make a well-deserved comeback, with huge palettes of colours for artists to play around with, huge sprites, hundreds of frames per second. There should be some gorgeous 2D games being made right now. 3. SIMPLIFY!!!! With the exponential increase of the amount of transistors peing placed on the average computer chip doubling every 18 months, It seems the amount of buttons on the average controller has followed suite. I remember playing space invaders on the atari 2600, which had only 1 BUTTON. what was it called? Fire!, what happened when you pressed it? YOU FIRED A SHOT!! how simple was that? and how moch fun was it too? These days you need a seperate manual for the control pad. Whats wrong with having a first-person perspective game (with amazing graphics) where you just run and shoot? no ducking, no peeking, no blinking, no picking your nose. just blowing the living shit out of the nasties? That sounds like fun to me. Again, Im not saying all games today are crap. All im saying is the big-name developers might just be spending a little too much time simulating the physics of a spark-plug and too little time asking themselves the question "will the player actually care about this?" At the end of the day is it about money and publicity or is it about gameplay? by the way that was a rhetorical question. I probably should stop, My doctor says I have the wrists of an 80-year old

quote: Original post by Nodger
Or are computer games not quite as fun as they used to be? How come I spend more time on my PC playing old classics like mario and Zelda and of course street fighter 2 even though I could be playing jedi knight 2 or even doom 3? Am I just a nostalgia freak, or are these jump and run 2-d cartoonish games genuinely more fun then these new 3d monsters?

You might be a nostalgia freak, but if you are I am one too. I routinely pull out old games and play them for a while. Despite their outdated graphics/sound, some of them are still a heck of a lot of fun to play.

quote: 1. NO MORE INTROS. This phenomonen started back in the days of the Sega mega-CD, as a way to show off the FMV capabilities of the machine, however for some reason this phenomonen has continued to today. Why? Nobody watches them. Nobody cares about them. The waste gigs of disk space and I can never seem to bash the right key to skip the bloody things.

If an intro is good, then it''s worthwhile to have. Fallout and Fallout 2 both had excellent FMV videos, which I actually watched through a number of times, because they were just so darn well done. I wish this was the norm, because sadly it''s not. A lot of developers chuck intro FMVs into their games even when it really isn''t needed. Games should only use intros if they''re going to help get the player into the mood of the game.

quote: 2. BRING BACK 2D. I''m not saying 3D games are bad, or wrong. No. Vice City is one of the most enjoyable games ive ever played. But so is Final Fight. With the power of todays machines, 2D graphics could easily make a well-deserved comeback, with huge palettes of colours for artists to play around with, huge sprites, hundreds of frames per second. There should be some gorgeous 2D games being made right now.

Instead of going all the way back to 2D, what I think would be cool is games that use modern 3D graphics (shaders, dynamic lighting) to emulate a 2D game. That would be the best of both worlds, IMO.

quote: 3. SIMPLIFY!!!! With the exponential increase of the amount of transistors peing placed on the average computer chip doubling every 18 months, It seems the amount of buttons on the average controller has followed suite. I remember playing space invaders on the atari 2600, which had only 1 BUTTON. what was it called? Fire!, what happened when you pressed it? YOU FIRED A SHOT!! how simple was that? and how moch fun was it too? These days you need a seperate manual for the control pad. Whats wrong with having a first-person perspective game (with amazing graphics) where you just run and shoot? no ducking, no peeking, no blinking, no picking your nose. just blowing the living shit out of the nasties? That sounds like fun to me.

I like a lot of the new controls. Ducking and peeking I feel were good additions to FPS games, they let you feel like you''re in a real environment instead of a construct of static polygons. FPS games are about trying to immerse the player into an environment where they get to blow people up. It makes it a lot easier to immerse the player when they can actually do things they can do in real life, and aren''t blocked by obstacles which would be easy to get past in real life, just because the programmers didn''t want to add a certain feature.

One word: Innovation.

We just need new kinds of games instead of rehashes of existing ideas.

Amid everything that has been done, it's hard to come up with something new. It's like trying to come up with a new board game that doesn't just sell by its pretty colors or the neat things it does, or the other board games it is ultimately like.

Plus, I think people are playing games more nowadays which can actually take away from the fun of it. I think games are more fun if you integrate them into a more well rounded life.

On the point of nostalgia, I am currently playing the Balance of Power campaign in XWing vs. TIE Fighter. I completely forgot how much fun the dogfighting and escorting was. The game does have its problems (why does the mission fail because I didn't inspect a craft that will inevitably be destroyed anyway?) but it's still worth playing.

[edited by - Waverider on August 19, 2003 1:49:39 PM]

quote: Original post by Nodger
2. BRING BACK 2D. I''m not saying 3D games are bad, or wrong. No. Vice City is one of the most enjoyable games ive ever played. But so is Final Fight. With the power of todays machines, 2D graphics could easily make a well-deserved comeback, with huge palettes of colours for artists to play around with, huge sprites, hundreds of frames per second. There should be some gorgeous 2D games being made right now.

Check out Guilty Gear XX on PS2. There are still some good 2D games around that look very good. Nice to see that you recognize a 3D game can be as fun as a 2D game btw.

quote:
Whats wrong with having a first-person perspective game (with amazing graphics) where you just run and shoot? no ducking, no peeking, no blinking, no picking your nose. just blowing the living shit out of the nasties? That sounds like fun to me.

I agree with you there. There is nothing wrong with complex control schemes, and I think some games need them, but we do end up in a trap where you have to have a certain complexity in your control scheme. Could someone get away with releasing a FPS with the control complexity of Doom for example, or are we forever locked into mouse look. People even complained when Metroid used a non-standard aiming system, closer to what you''d find in a console platformer than a FPS. I''d like to hear people''s opinions on this because one of the things that makes Doom feel the way it does is you don''t have to stop and think about aiming. I think I''ll post a new thread about my opinions on FPS aiming and control complexity because to bring it up here would be kind of offtopic.

quote:
Again, Im not saying all games today are crap. All im saying is the big-name developers might just be spending a little too much time simulating the physics of a spark-plug and too little time asking themselves the question "will the player actually care about this?" At the end of the day is it about money and publicity or is it about gameplay?

I''m impressed with your ability to realize that not all recent games are bad. I often argue with people that start threads like this one because they are blinded by nostalgia. I think you are somewhat nostalgic, you can''t help but be a little nostalgic about the games of your childhood. I love good old games also, so do most people. Nowadays I play a roughly equal combination of older and newer games, I don''t really look at games in terms of old or new though.

This sounds like the Dogma2001. Basically the same stuff, but put into 10 strict rules, about only 2 button controllers, no usage of the color black, no usage of cliche'' animals/races/species/jobs, no cutscenes, no hardware acceleration... stuff like that.

1. NO MORE INTROS.

I disagree. Sure, there are intros that aren''t good, but mostly I like watching some kind of introduction for the game. It helps me understand the background story, get a quick introdction to the characters in the game, ...

2. BRING BACK 2D.
2D graphics could easily make a well-deserved comeback, with huge palettes of colours for artists to play around with, huge sprites, hundreds of frames per second.

First, you won''t get more colors because you use 2D. Secondly, sprites are just ugly and needs a lot more work, unless they''re generated from a 3D model in which case the game is basically 3D anyhow. You can get 100 fps today in a lot of 3d games. I don''t really care as long as it''s over 40 or so. I think the human eye can''t really "understand" more than 60.

Finally, graphics aren''t really what makes games fun. (With the exception of games where graphics are so bad it makes the game harder to play, or when the interface is worthless.)


3. SIMPLIFY!!!!

Play Serious Sam! Sure, you still need to aim and run and change weapons, but that''s about it. Oh, you can jump to. (And it IS a great game :D )

And some games REQUIRE more complex controls. Any RPG, most FPSs (Splinter Cell, Soldier of Fortune, ...), etc. Why? Because when I play an FPS where one shot can kill me, I want to be able to crouch behind a crate when I''m reloading. And I want to be able to aim, because if I cant then the whole idea with FPSs are removed, basically.

If you want games with few controls, try RTSs. They usually just require a mouse.




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"Kaka e gott" - Me
Current project: An RPG with tactical, real-time combat with a realistic damage system, and randomly generated world and dialogue.

well you put an issue in 3 point

1. play nintendo game

2. play some nintendo game
(gba mostly for recent but they made good 3D games too with taste)

3. play nintendo game

well nintendo games are mostly well balance, there is no hype

many non-nintendo game rules too

and many games that stay away of 1 2 3 is good too

well just play a lot

try to find miracle game that defy your logic and keep ure mind open

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
be good
be evil
but do it WELL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

ok.....

quote: Original post by Neoshaman
well you put an issue in 3 point

1. play nintendo game

2. play some nintendo game
(gba mostly for recent but they made good 3D games too with taste)

3. play nintendo game

well nintendo games are mostly well balance, there is no hype

many non-nintendo game rules too

and many games that stay away of 1 2 3 is good too

well just play a lot

try to find miracle game that defy your logic and keep ure mind open

Tah ! You stole my sentence
I was about to day buy a GameCube, and/or a GameBoy Advance



-* So many things to do, so little time to spend. *-

Just one comment about #2.

When we say "Bring Back 2d," do we mean:

Bring back sprites!

or do we mean:

Bring back games using only a 2d plane for gameplay!



Sprites, I think, are slowly losing their usefulness. A 3d model, once completed with a full set of animations and multiple skins, is so adaptable and reusable that whatever extra time/cost it might''ve taken in making it is quickly regained. And if you like the look of sprites, well, if we can''t do it today, we''ll have shaders that''ll give us the right look sometime, probably soon. And if you want a low resolution, then you render it to a low res, it''s as simple as that

Using the 2d plane, however, is a completely different story. I think it will last indefinitely, though the industry is still going through a stage of "full 3d games only only only." 2d simplifies the controls and accessibility of a game, and has proven satisfactory for the purpose of providing a challenging, interesting gameplay environment.