Data Structures For Game Programmers

Sep 5, 2003 at 1:36 AM

clicky

I believe that topic sums up my feelings on a book that is about the equivalent of a 100-level course in CS, with a focus on computer games.

That, and Mithrandir is a hippy.

Dreddnafious Maelstrom

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Dreddnafious Maelstrom

Sep 5, 2003 at 2:10 AM

dont player hate on Mithrandir. Hes a hippy but he gives a shit, that entitles him to a bit of leeway.

235

Sep 5, 2003 at 11:34 AM

Again, are you going to give my book a true critique, or are you just lashing out at me?

106

Sep 5, 2003 at 11:45 AM

I quite liked Timothy Budd''s book on Data Structures and algorithms. Knuth''s tomes stay on my desk. Does this book offer something that these don''t?

235

Sep 5, 2003 at 11:51 AM

quote:
Original post by flangazor
I quite liked Timothy Budd''s book on Data Structures and algorithms. Knuth''s tomes stay on my desk. Does this book offer something that these don''t?

Budd: He teaches the concept of the structure, and how to use it in STL
Knuth: Teaches the concept of the structure, and lots of mathematical proofs too
CLRS: same as knuth
Mine: more casual look at structures, not strict on the mathematics, teaches three things in each chapter: concept of structure/algo, how to implement your own in C++, how to apply them to a game.

if you already know DS/A''s, you probably won''t be interested in this though.

106

Sep 5, 2003 at 12:11 PM

Oh ok. I was looking Austern''s book as well, but Amazon reviews say its just the stuff you will find at www.sgi.com/tech/stl/ so I didn''t buy it.

I am very interested in a book about extending the STL. For example, I would like to extend fstreams to use zlib, libtar, and libpng. There is an fstream in the zlib distrobution, but its pre-1998 and isn''t very good.

Zorodius

Sep 5, 2003 at 1:57 PM

quote:
Original post by Peon
Big heavy book, and I got 20% off at my bookstore because I''m a student -- $40. Not bad, since it usually goes for $60 or so.

Good thing you''re a programmer and not an accountant.

MDI

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MDI

Sep 5, 2003 at 2:00 PM

quote:
Original post by Mithrandir
Again, are you going to give my book a true critique, or are you just lashing out at me?

Why don''t you find out where he lives and club him to death like a baby seal?

Tear me apart and boil my bones, I will not rest till she''s lost her throne, my aim is true, my message is clear, it''s curtains for you, Elizabeth, my dear.

Author

102

Sep 5, 2003 at 2:16 PM

quote:
Original post by Zorodius
quote:
Original post by Peon
Big heavy book, and I got 20% off at my bookstore because I''m a student -- $40. Not bad, since it usually goes for $60 or so.

Good thing you''re a programmer and not an accountant.

I think I''ve seen the book retail for $60 in some places, but my store had it at $50, and 20% of $50 = 10$ savings. That wasn''t clear from my initial post though

Sep 5, 2003 at 4:49 PM

quote:
Original post by Mithrandir
Again, are you going to give my book a true critique, or are you just lashing out at me?

I did. Your book can be found scattered in pieces all over the Internet in the form of tutorials and course notes.

The Reindeer Effect

Sep 5, 2003 at 5:35 PM

You can''t expect people to write truly original things and publish for Premier ...

Most of their books are written by hobbyists who learned from the internet.

On the other hand, some people would rather pay $60 to get all the information together. I wouldn''t, but I would definitely check it out at a bookstore. That in itself tells you that it is much easier than browsing the web.

It''s not reality that''s important, but how you perceive things.

Sep 5, 2003 at 9:09 PM

I would pay for a handy summation, assuming it was something I wanted a summation of badly enough. That OpenGL book by hawkins and whoever (lamothe too, i think) is one i have, it's nice because i have a whole bunch of things, not to mention I used it as a general OpenGL/3D Graphics/Game Design intro.

DirectX sux!

edit: As for summations I don't feel like paying for, I have binders and binders of useful papers. Collision detection, graph drawing, fresnel reflections, particle systems, and some other things, looking over them.

[edited by - TSwitch on September 5, 2003 10:11:09 PM]

Author

102

Sep 5, 2003 at 9:25 PM

Well, like Mith said, "if you already know DS/A''s, you probably won''t be interested in this though. " I''d say that is a fair assessment. I don''t see it trying to be the be-all-end-all of data structure books; rather, it is more useful in teaching people who have never seen the structures before (like me) how to implement them. It''s definetly more of an intermediate book, then some huge tome of Godliness. It is also much easier to understand (I''d imagine) than the really technical books, which is great for a programmer who is trying to learn the structures. Again, that''s nto a useful "feature", if you already know the structures.

Zefrieg

Sep 6, 2003 at 1:30 AM

Pfft, "Data Structures for Game Programmers" is just another Premier Press "make money off of beginners" book. I find it funny that some of their authors are still students; how degrading.

Anyway, it isn''t like the book is totally worthless, but there really is no reason for anyone to have it on their shelves. It includes the same old information that you will find in many places. The implementations are acceptable, but there are better ways to do several of the data structures he covers. The binary tree is pretty weak too.

A word of advice, don''t bother with the Premier Press books. Although you might think they are great now, once you become a better programmer you probably won''t have much of a use for them. In fact, you will find alot of flaws in a majority of the topics covered within. They are about the same calibur as the "for dummies" books.

BradDaBug

241

BradDaBug

Sep 6, 2003 at 1:44 AM

Mith is a capitalist pig. He shoulda released the book free, but no! He had to make MONEY! The ALMIGHTY DOLLAR RULES!

Anyways, you can pretty much find ANYTHING you want somewhere on the internet. The point of having a book is so that you can have it sitting there right next to you, in one convenient place. Sure I could just read NeHe & Co. tutorials to learn OpenGL, but I got OpenGL Game Programming because I wanted the cohesiveness and fluidity of the information in book format.

235

Sep 6, 2003 at 5:11 PM

quote:
Original post by TSwitch
That, and Mithrandir is a hippy.

By the way, I''ve been officially disqualified from being a hippie, since I''ve killed so many trees.

I''VE KILLED MORE TREES THAN YOU, NYA NYA NYA NYA NYA

235

Sep 6, 2003 at 5:25 PM

quote:
Original post by Zefrieg
Pfft, "Data Structures for Game Programmers" is just another Premier Press "make money off of beginners" book. I find it funny that some of their authors are still students; how degrading.

I find this assertion insulting. The *only* reason I went to school was to receive a little piece of paper saying that I know stuff; not to learn. I never learned anything computer-related from school, I learned everything on my own in my free time, due to passion and love of discrete algorithmatics.

My Aunt, who doesn''t even have a degree, was the recipient of a Lifetime Achievement Award from the Emergency Nurses Association in 2000, and was their president in 1995 and 1996 as well. She just went back to school for a BS last year.

So suddenly, when we''re in school, we''re not qualified?

quote:

Anyway, it isn''t like the book is totally worthless, but there really is no reason for anyone to have it on their shelves. It includes the same old information that you will find in many places. The implementations are acceptable, but there are better ways to do several of the data structures he covers. The binary tree is pretty weak too.

As I explained in the book, there are always "better" ways to do things, as "better" is a subjective label that depends on the situation you are in. I regret some of the things I did in the book, such as relegate STL to a minor role, but decisions like that were out of my hands. It had to be VC5 compatible, and VC5 has no known STL variants that actually work like the standard teaches. Would you rather me teach some retarded half-standard STL implementation, or say "there are books out there that already teach you STL, and do a better job than I could"?

Maybe once you''ve written a book on your own, you''ll know what it''s like to be working within limits.

quote:

A word of advice, don''t bother with the Premier Press books. Although you might think they are great now, once you become a better programmer you probably won''t have much of a use for them. In fact, you will find alot of flaws in a majority of the topics covered within. They are about the same calibur as the "for dummies" books.

I''m afraid you''ve missed the point. Once you''re a better programmer, you won''t need books except as a reference. But you don''t become a "better programmer" one day, it takes lots of learning, and quite frankly, many of the existing books out there just don''t cut it. They confuse the hell out of people by assuming knowledge that beginners just don''t have.

Tell me, did you ever need a "dummy" book, or were you pre-born with expert programming knowledge?