quote: Original post by lpsoftware
...The most needed is matrix math (not too much), geometry, and algebra.

What other kind of computer math *is* there? matrices include vectors, algebra & vectors & matrices includes linear algebra.

All you have to know, is all the discrete math that exist well not really...

Probably not much I can add to this discussion, but it is interesting. I would say that there are two ways game development can be hard. I also have a third point.

The first is not being able to implement your vision due to crappiness of stuff, as a programmer, I find lots of times I want to do something, but because someone had to make it overcomplicated, I can''t do it. API''s like OpenGL are moving in the right direction. Many people reinvent the wheel... and do it poorly. I have messed some with COM objects, an example of something which is so frustrating it prevents good programming(personal example, some people like COM).

The other way it is hard really hacks me off. I had a guy who wanted me to "teach him how to make a 3d engine". So I started with some basic math(BTW, the math skills are only requisite when you''re rolling your own 3d engine, it helps elsewhere, but not as much as clear thinking). Turns out he had been programming three weeks. I suggested he invest some skills in learning programming, this horribly insulted him, as he felt that he should just be able to do it, or I should give him code(which I did, but he couldn''t figure out how to use it), or that in general, the world should somehow provide him with what he wanted. The process should be lubricated as much as it possibly can, but to some its like saying, "I want to write great literature, but I don''t want to bother with actually having to write the book". Suck it down.

My last point(after the flamebait) is that eventually some kinds of programming are refined until the creation of application specific tools are the penultimate expression of the requirements. Perl is an example for text processing. For the old-school text adventure games, I understand it has reached that stage of refinement. For the rest of gaming? Nowhere close, but I would ask you to consider the mod community and Unreal Script, these are the beginnings. Sure there is always a need for better graphics and sound, but at some point, an avenue has reached a stage of refinement where the specialization involved makes the creation of certain tools a neccessity. In fact, I would suggest games will arrive at such a solution in a hybrid fashion. The parts of games which are not fully explored(graphics) will be written in general programming languages with API''s, and the rest of the game will be written in a refined language that will allow the rest of the game features to be expressed concisely.</p>

Haha, in NO way did I imply that I wanted to have my cake and eat it too. I was just saying I''m not all that hot at C/C++, and I''ve given it a fair amount of time. It might be that programming just isn''t my thing, or maybe I should try alot harder, I don''t know.

I know how you guys get that exhilarating feeling after completing something made by you, but then again, is it?Languages from assembly up C/C++, other high level languages, and low/medium level API''s such as OpenGL and DirectX make things "not completely yours". Am I right? So I don''t worry about stuff like that. I truly wish that I could share that feeling upon creating something of my own in C or C++, but it just hasn''t happened yet, maybe it''s not my time



Greg K.

Just keep trying, no matter what. Your time will come.

Martin

Greg, you''re wondering why these powerful game-creation tools don''t exist... I think it''s because nobody wants to make them. A powerful, flexible game-creation tool (API, whatever) would be (1) more complex to program than your typical professional game, (2) much less fun, because you''re not really creating anything tangible or visible, and (3) less profitable than your typical professional game, particularly considering how quickly such a tool would become technologically obselete.

Hi Greg,

The CLOSEST thing you can ever come to this would be to make a mod for a game. If you REALLY want to see your vision of a game without all of the tedious coding then make a mod for a game. There are tons of tutorials, tools, etc for making mods. Some are pretty cool too. And some have actually been tweaked with so much that they are sold. It''s not TOO hard either. I fidled with the Quake2 source a bit, it''s a bit overwhelming at first, but take it in piece by piece.

Hope that will shed some light for you.



~-=-=-=-=-=-=~
~Justin Eslinger~
~.."BlackScar"..~
~-=-=-=-=-=-=~

Well, aside from hobbyists (which is basically everyone on this board), people are interested in reducing the difficulty of creating interactive media (including games). Because that means more money made with less people in less time. This is the basis for licensing engines. To use an example, BioWare''s Inifinity engine was created and used to make several RPGs, including Baldur''s gate and recently Icewind Dale. But, the engine itself was so complete that the Icewind Dale project only had a single engine programmer (lots of scripters though) and everyone else was mostly artists and writers/scripters.
But, this simplicity comes at a cost: the technology in Icewind dale is really out of date. That''s the basic paradox here: in order for an engine to become popular it has to be used to create a really popular game. But two years after that popular game is released, when all the games using that engine are released, the engine is already obsolete.
In the not-too-terribly distant future I''m sure we''ll reach a threshold in both hardware (speed and power) and software (realism) where a single engine can be used for many games across a large span of time. When that time comes, it''s easy to foresee game development teams consisting of a single programmer and dozens of content creators.. but until then, you''re basically out of luck.
Still, it''s not like you need to have games that use the absolute latest technology . Making mods is (relatively) easy, depending on the engine gives you a ton of freedom, and requires only basic programming skill. Plus you get to see the world you create emerge right before your eyes, while programming a game from scratch can take months before you can even see anything.

Good luck =)
-RWarden (roberte@maui.net)

But wouldnt it be easier if we all submitted our own routines/functions to a dedicated web site (like this one) so coders like us can download them if we either dont have time to code them ourselves, or if we get completely stuck and need a help in hand?

For instance, ive created my own DirectDraw blit routine which aultomatically clips the destination rect to avoid blit failure, surely everyone has done the same!? I found it to be a tedious task with this particular instance, but there have been times where I have enjoyed creating my functions...it can be fun, but it can be quite annoying too. If someone else uploaded it for me to download, i would of saved alot of tedious time wasting.

Howz we create an area in gamedev called "Coders help desk" or something? I know there is a "Code vault" but thats different to what I would like to see...

Greg,

I am probably one of those "math geniuses" now, but we were all where you are now - i used to visit the university library to read books on 8086 assembly when i was at school. and i hated it. i would have been happy to use QuickBasic to do a game that was fun.

And this is where the importance is: Fun.

There are many people out there who are hell bent on writing Yet Another 3D Engine (except theirs will be even better). They make good programmers to join a team, but they are not true Game Developers.

Game Development is much more then rotating points and plotting them Ever-So-Fast{tm}. It is making something that is FUN TO PLAY.

so start small and make sure what you are doing is fun.

- For me it isn''t the math at all; I can''t find anywhere you''d need to do difficult math yourself in the entire MS D3D book. What the problem is, is remembering this surface and that pointer, and what got passed where and when and with which param. Some people keep saying that object-orienting helps, but I have yet to see how. MS has the charming habit of separating most all of their D3D examples into at least ten or twelve different O-O source files, so it becomes difficult to track anything through the code mentally.
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That said, I don''t really care how to set up DirectX. That is, if the game console in TotWGPG worked, I would have just copied it and spent my time actually writing the (2D) game, rather than attempting to get the window/ddraw init to work [like I''m trying to now], which is no fun at all. Most of business programming is modifying existing code; you don''t re-write anything completely unless you have to. Why should game programming be any different? And as far as opening a window and creating a ddraw surface goes, I can''t likely write anything better than what Andre or MS can write anyway, so who cares if I didn''t write it all myself? If it worked well, I know I wouldn''t. Most of us don''t know everything about particle physics, but that doesn''t stop us from using electric lights. - Lubb