Linux experiences

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Original post by andromeda
And I would have got Debian, but I tried figuring out the jigdo thing, and it was confusing, plus a ton of the servers were down after being compromised.

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I successfully use Debian (servers are back up, BTW), and I can say, without a doubt, "What the hell is ''jigdo''?"

Seriously. What is it? Whatever it is, I don''t use it.

Jigdo, or Jigsaw Downloader, can be downloaded here (although, the server seems to be unavailable right now, for some reason; perhaps due to the server compromise the OP mentioned?) and is the recommended means for assembling and downloading ISO images for Debian installation CDs. There are more mirrors available for jigdo installs than for full ISO images, and the full images may also be bandwidth throttled to save the servers. Jigdo pieces the ISOs together, building the image piece by piece, and can resume interrupted downloads and so on.

It was a tad confusing at first when I tried it, but once I figured it out it was pretty nifty, and better than struggling through a full 650MB download at throttled speeds, only to have the connection take a dump on the last 17MB (has happened to me before).

Josh
vertexnormal AT linuxmail DOT org

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Check out Golem: Lands of Shadow, an isometrically rendered hack-and-slash inspired equally by Nethack and Diablo.

To fix the fonts try:

In Mozilla Edit->Preferences->Appearence->Fonts and untick the tick box "Allow documents to use other fonts"

This makes it use the nice system fonts instead.
Not sure if Firebird is exactly the same but I''m guessing so.

Wow, the Nvidia driver installation was relatively painless. Sure, I had a crash-course in vim, but I would''ve had to learn sooner or later.

OK, Firebird fonts: There''s no option really like that in Firebird, but I tried it in Mozilla, and gah! My system fonts are uglier than Mozilla''s So I''ve fixed it to look a little better now by telling it to use Helvetica instead of Times as my default Serif font.

I looked into updating the kernel, but I don''t think I''m ready for that yet. One other thing, though: I''ve tried over and over to access the extensions page for Firebird (Mozilla''s homepage says that it''s here), but it never opens. Can anyone else bring that page up?

Thanks again.

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Original post by andromeda
One other thing, though: I''ve tried over and over to access the extensions page for Firebird (Mozilla''s homepage says that it''s here), but it never opens. Can anyone else bring that page up?

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If you can''t get that page, try extensionroom.mozdev.org.

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Original post by VertexNormal
Jigdo...

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Ah. Thanks. No wonder I haven''t used it: I got Potato off an Advanced Linux Pocketbook CD set then dist-upgraded to sid ages ago.

honestly, all the OSes I''ve played with have come a long way in the last 2 years ...

I mean, Windows XP Corp (which I think is identical to Pro with activation disabled) is the first Windows better than Windows 98 Second Edition .... DirectX drivers are finally getting solid, GDI+ helps general apps, and .NET is SOOOO many times better than MFC ever was ... (I used to use Borland VCL over MFC)

FreeBSD 4.5 finally made getting a great server setup so damn easy (after I''d done it a time or two while learning FreeBSD, Linux, Apache, and MySQL) ... and FreeBSD 4.8 made putting X-Windows and KDE 3 on top of this work right on my old hardware too - although I really don''t usually run a graphical desktop on my server ... it''s there for when I need to browse for web help while changing my server setup).

MacOS X, and espeially the later updates ... who wouldn''t love a totally amazing FreeBSD server system, with a modern desktop working right out of the box ... too bad it''s only on that stupid hardware ...

All the Linux''s I''ve seen and used are just really getting there - I had played with linux a little while back at SUSE 6 and Red Hat 7 .. and both we''re close, but not really working great ... the apps weren''t great, the drivers weren''t, the intergration wasn''t ... the only thing they we''re good for was being a server that could browse the web and edit code ....

Then I tried Mandrake 8 ... which was almost OK for a desktop ... but didn''t quite work for me ...

Then today''s linux''s came out ... I''ve got Mandrake 9.1 and SUSE 9.0 installed and working flawlessly ... with printing, usb, KDE 3, everything ... without ANY major bugs, nor any compicated manual configurations ... they just work ... right after install ... I put the SUSE DVD in the drive ... configured it to partition my way, and install a lot of software ... 30 minutes ... then went to bed ... woke up, ansered 5 minutes more stuff maybe ... and viola ... a beatiful running system ... that even my non-computer girlfriend could use HER FIRST DAY to browse the internet, send email, AND type documents in OOo for school ... cause my windows machine has Corel WordPerfect (no Windows DOC format support) ...

I''ve also played with Gentoo 1.4 (very nice, supposed to be FreeBSD like, but really it only shared that 1 thing - Portage system) ... I like this platform for people who like compiling Source.

Debian 3, My linux sys admin friend uses this exclusively ... and all his machines run GREAT ... including instant messenges and other windows knock-offs ... AS WELL AS his WINE and WINEX games (he plays Diablo II and Red Aleart from Linux). This is also a good distrobution for those who like control of their system.

I only played with Red Hat 9 for 1 day ... no real opinion ... it seemed fine, but SUSE feels better to me.

I agree that Mandrake has always felt "fluffy" ... I just feel like it''s putting more stuff behind the scenes than needed ... and has moved certain configs around for no real reason ... But it was definately the FIRST linux to feel like a desktop, not a "linux with x windows" ... although now they are all so much better ...

I am hoping to Try Xandros 2 soon ... and would like to check out Lycoris, and Lindows 4 (but I won''t keep it if using APT-GET still breaks it''s package system) ...

I highly recommend SUSE 9.0 Professional for anyone who fits into this category: you can afford the $90 without too much trouble, you have a DVD reader (cause a 1 DVD install is SO MUCH BETTER than 3-5 CDs), you want a machine to feel like a modern desktop WORKSTATION ... not a server, and not just a desktop (basically if you prefer Windows XP Pro to XP Home or 2003 Server - than this distro is for you).

For those without money to pay $90, or no DVD ... I recommend either Gentoo or Mandrake ... depending on it if you want more leanring and control, and more command line usage (gentoo) ... or more "I don''t care how it works ... just as long as it works" (mandrake).

I like the simplicity in linux's design. very clean, lean and stable design. but the thing that irks me the most is the lack of binary standards. LSB addresses most of these on the userspace, but entirely lacking on kernelspace. Releasing binary drivers is a nightmare as a result of this. Well, I think I'm probably off-topic here. Anyway, to answer the title, Linux has been a wonderful (bitter-sweet though) experience. But I did learn far more in 2 ys of Linux that in 8 yrs of The Other OS That Most Ppl Use. I guess what I'm trying to say is Linux allows your ability with the OS to scale with your experience and knowledge and not put lock you in new newbie mode forever.

[edited by - ugenn on January 3, 2004 3:31:08 AM]

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Original post by ugenn
LSB addresses most of these on the userspace, but entirely lacking on kernelspace. Releasing binary drivers is a nightmare as a result of this.

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If you read what Linus thinks about binary drivers you''ll see he''s doesn''t plan to make it any easier for binary drivers to exist than it is now. He thinks that limiting the module interface so that binary compatibility is possible would cripple the kernel''s possibilities to evolve (and it would have, some of the new highly-touted features of the kernel could not have been added without changing the module interface). So, while he doesn''t plan to purposefully make it any more difficult to use binary drivers (with the exception of the kernel-space "tainting" dealie, which was done to make the kernel developers'' jobs easier) he isn''t going to go out of his way to make it easier either. Source compatibility is a higher priority, but only slightly so. From a kernel developer''s perspective, binary-only modules are not helping anything; so, why limit the possibilities of new code that is actually helping the project?

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Original post by Null and Void

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Original post by ugenn
LSB addresses most of these on the userspace, but entirely lacking on kernelspace. Releasing binary drivers is a nightmare as a result of this.

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If you read what Linus thinks about binary drivers you'll see he's doesn't plan to make it any easier for binary drivers to exist than it is now. He thinks that limiting the module interface so that binary compatibility is possible would cripple the kernel's possibilities to evolve (and it would have, some of the new highly-touted features of the kernel could not have been added without changing the module interface). So, while he doesn't plan to purposefully make it any more difficult to use binary drivers (with the exception of the kernel-space "tainting" dealie, which was done to make the kernel developers' jobs easier) he isn't going to go out of his way to make it easier either. Source compatibility is a higher priority, but only slightly so. From a kernel developer's perspective, binary-only modules are not helping anything ; so, why limit the possibilities of new code that is actually helping the project?

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From the end user's point of view, binary drivers are extremely benificial, particularly for non-tech savvy users. With the current situation right now, if a vendor doesn't support your distro, you're pretty much screwed if you don't know how to build your own. Also, with the present situation, a vendor needs to maintain multiple binaries (quite often multiple VERSIONS of the same distro), with an ABI in place, only one needs to be maintained.

Yes, I agree that an ABI would take away flexiblity, but so does any form of standardisation. You could apply the same argument to userspace libraries too, but look at how much the baptism of ELF as an ABI has benifitted Linux as a whole.

I personally would like Linux to gain a bigger market share on the desktop and become more "mainstream", and this issue, I feel, is a stumbling block towards that.

[edited by - ugenn on January 3, 2004 7:29:49 AM]

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Original post by andromeda
Here are the problems I''ve encountered so far: The fonts in Firebird. The very first time I opened up Mozilla (1.4), the fonts looked beautiful, but then I had to go screw it up and install 1.5, and then went with Firebird. The fonts are all jagged and ugly, especially here on Gamedev. Any suggestions?

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Try Installing the mozilla-xft package and some TrueType fonts and go through the font selection again, that should help quite a lot.

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Original post by andromeda
I didn''t want Gentoo, because I didn''t have another computer close enough to bring up the installation instructions on while I installed.

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In the gentoo installation you can press Ctrl+Alt+(1-4) to switch between virtual terminals and open the "links" browser on one of them to read the manual.

there is absolutely no need for binary drivers ... but here''s the twist ...

there is a need for everyone to be able to get a driver package and add it to the system JUST LIKE INSTALLING BINARIES UNDER WINDOWS! ... but my insight is this - there is no technical difference between binary or source code, or resource, or intermediate format, or whatever ... ALL that matters is that there is ONE FILE that a user downloads, and ONE METHOD that the user uses to add it to the system ... the internal operations are irrelevant ...

So expand your minds people ... and those out there with the ability ... here''s a short list of areas where windows beats the pants off linux in end-user mind space ...

Getting documents off the internet in ZIP or PDF format and either viewing them or storing them for later (user''s choice, not program''s choice) ...

Viewing or manipulating compressed file / packages (ZIP/TAR/GZ) - there REALLY needs to be even more improvement for this in linux file manager programs (like nautalis)

Installing a software product or driver from a CD or an internet downloaded file ... this should only require these steps:

go to the right place to get the file
download the file
run the file (perhaps right-click then INSTALL)

the only other acceptable step is if you need a

unzip the file into a directory, option - between download and run .. and this must also be as easy as double-click or right-click ...

of course in linux these things require root access, but that can be handled just like the good distros (SUSE for example) poping up a dialog box asking for the password - if the user isn''t in that mode.

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Original post by Xai
Getting documents off the internet in ZIP or PDF format and either viewing them or storing them for later (user''s choice, not program''s choice) ...

Viewing or manipulating compressed file / packages (ZIP/TAR/GZ) - there REALLY needs to be even more improvement for this in linux file manager programs (like nautalis)

Installing a software product or driver from a CD or an internet downloaded file ... this should only require these steps:

go to the right place to get the file
download the file
run the file (perhaps right-click then INSTALL)

the only other acceptable step is if you need a

unzip the file into a directory, option - between download and run .. and this must also be as easy as double-click or right-click ...

of course in linux these things require root access, but that can be handled just like the good distros (SUSE for example) poping up a dialog box asking for the password - if the user isn''t in that mode.

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I have Debian and KDE. I can do all those things you listed (almost) exactly as you described them. For packages, I log into root first, then do run aptitude for all my software installing/upgrading needs. It''s probably better this way since you know that the software package has been through enough scrutiny to be in the actual distribution rather than just packaged by some nut on the net somewhere.



The following statement is true. The previous statement is false.
Shameless promotion:
FreePop: The GPL Populous II clone.

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Original post by 255

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Original post by andromeda
I didn''t want Gentoo, because I didn''t have another computer close enough to bring up the installation instructions on while I installed.

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In the gentoo installation you can press Ctrl+Alt+(1-4) to switch between virtual terminals and open the "links" browser on one of them to read the manual.

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You''ve gotta be kidding! Son of a bitch!!

Oh well. Oh, and Shadowdancer, thanks for the tip, I''ll try that as soon as I get the chance.

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Original post by andromeda
You've gotta be kidding! Son of a bitch!!

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Text-mode html browsers are neat. Some others are lynx and w3m.
Also, that should read Ctrl+Alt+F1 to F4. (Dists I've used go up to F6, with XFree86 on F7.)

[edited by - Doc on January 5, 2004 1:15:34 AM]

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Original post by 255

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Original post by andromeda
I didn't want Gentoo, because I didn't have another computer close enough to bring up the installation instructions on while I installed.

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In the gentoo installation you can press Ctrl+Alt+(1-4) to switch between virtual terminals and open the "links" browser on one of them to read the manual.

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To be more specific (ie. pimp my favorite distro):

When you start the Gentoo live CD (downloaded from www.gentoo.org) press ALT-F2 after it boots up to go to the second terminal screen (third is ALT-F3, etc...) and type "links http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/gentoo-x86-install.xml." This will bring up the most current install document. The install document is also on the CD if you don't a have a net connection. You could open it in your favorite text editor (emacs, nano or vi). Follow it (to the letter) and you shouldn't have any problems. To get back to the first terminal just press ALT-F1.

If you have a problem, just go to forums.gentoo.org and ask your question. They are very helpful there and if you search, they might have already answered the same question to somebody else.


Cheers,

Bob


PS. I like Gentoo, I use Gentoo, but I understand that it's not for everybody. Some people just need to use an abacus.


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Halfway down the trail to hell...

[edited by - scourage on January 9, 2004 5:10:42 AM]

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Original post by Scourage
When you start the Gentoo live CD (downloaded from www.gentoo.org) press ALT-F2 after it boots up to go to the second terminal screen (third is ALT-F3, etc...) and type "links http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/gentoo-x86-install.xml." This will bring up the most current install document. The install document is also on the CD if you don''t a have a net connection. You could open it in your favorite text editor (emacs, nano or vi). Follow it (to the letter) and you shouldn''t have any problems. To get back to the first terminal just press ALT-F1.

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Something else worth clarifying: ALT-F? only works when switching between text consoles. If you''re in X you must use CTRL-ALT-F?. It''s probably best that you use CTRL-ALT-F? all the time, the consoles work with either. Take heed: one time I was in X and wanted to go to console 4. I regretted forgetting the CTRL that time, I can tell you.

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Original post by Doc

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Original post by Scourage
When you start the Gentoo live CD (downloaded from www.gentoo.org) press ALT-F2 after it boots up to go to the second terminal screen (third is ALT-F3, etc...) and type "links http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/gentoo-x86-install.xml." This will bring up the most current install document. The install document is also on the CD if you don''t a have a net connection. You could open it in your favorite text editor (emacs, nano or vi). Follow it (to the letter) and you shouldn''t have any problems. To get back to the first terminal just press ALT-F1.

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Something else worth clarifying: ALT-F? only works when switching between text consoles. If you''re in X you must use CTRL-ALT-F?. It''s probably best that you use CTRL-ALT-F? all the time, the consoles work with either. Take heed: one time I was in X and wanted to go to console 4. I regretted forgetting the CTRL that time, I can tell you.

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My window manager(FluxBox) fixes that annoying issue by allowing alt-fn.