First-Person/3rd Person Melee Combat

Melee Combat (Hand to Hand) works much better with 3rd person than 1st person. Mainly because it''s been done before and new game designers can use what has been done before to help them tackle the programming issues.

Max Payne has a MOD for 3rd Person Martial Arts Action. It makes Max Payne a far better game than without the melee (hand to hand).

There is a computer game company that is attempting a Martial Arts (hand to hand) combat in 1st person. The game is out yet and the verdict isn''t out yet whether they will pull it off. You can check it out on Gamespot.com I think it''s a game for the Xbox.

Anyhow... I am all for Melee combat. Sticks, swords, e.t.c. I am sick and tired of PC Games giving you only a simple punch or a stupid Crowbar as your only melee.

Imagine ''environmental'' melee! Where you see a garbage can and walk up to it. Pick it up and throw it at your enemy. All in 1st person perspective! Or when you are throwing punches.... Maybe when the enemy is next to a garbage can you can get the option to slam the guy''s head into the garbage can!

Dragonwolf wrote,

"I''ve still yet to see a melee-combat system to my liking, they always seem quite limited or follow pre-defined patterns/animations wouldn''t it be better to let the user construct their patterns?"

Hmm.. I agree but t''would be a challenge to do it differently. A lot of processor power would be needed.

1st Person Perspective
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One idea you could think about is to have the mouse move the arms of the player character. The left button on the mouse will execute a punch. Right button can do blocks. Move the mouse up and the arms move up and you can execute high punches and high blocks. And same thing when the arms are low. You protect your NADS or you punch the guy''s NADS.

same goes with a Stick or Crowbar. Move arms up and down, execute high or low attacks or blocks with the weapon.

Next thing you can consider is to program the keyboard. Press the K button to allow ''Kicking.'' Now you can get a meter that shows whether you are about to commit a high, mid, or low kick.
(A Meter is needed because in real live you can''t tell whether someone is going to kick you in the head or stomache or NADS until the Kick is already in motion)

Manipulate the Meter by moving the mouse up and down and then execute kick with left mouse button. Up raises meter, down shrinks it.

Press P: Back to punching.
Press T: Throwing
Press D: Dodge Maneuvers (I.E. James Bond/Max Payne Jumping and Rolling)
Press K: Kicking
(Allow player to customize controls on the keyboard)

This at least gives the player some flexibility!

You can then toy around with ''random'' animations to jazz things up. Instead of 1 high punch doing the same thing all the time you can set up several versions of the high punch. Maybe a version where your player character turns around and back hands? Karate Chops Instead? e.t.c. Set it up randomly and make the animations change according to the position of the arms!

well, theres ' breakdown ' for xbox. a fp melee fighitng game. i dun have an xbox so i dun know how the game goes tho.



[edited by - AcRiD_aCiD on February 18, 2004 1:47:00 AM]

Die By The Sword was an interesting experiment in mouse control for melee. It had two systems that were based on the same engine(VSIM), the "dumbed-down" move presets, and the "for experts" control. Basically, you swooshed around your mouse and your guy moved his sword. Combined with, IIRC, button presses for some modification, this made for a fairly satisfying melee experience, though perhaps not a perfect one - one obvious caveat was that you had to learn to do a lot of compensating because your guy couldn''t move his sword instantaneously(which was also what made it realistic of course). It was fast paced and required skill, but not of the arcade-fighter type where it''s all about the special moves and combos. I liked it but it obviously never caught on. I wonder how well it would work on a console?

There was one game a few years ago--I totally forget the name--that had what I thought was a great melee experience. When using WASD the three keys above it (1,2,3) controlled stances, high, forward, and low. When not pressing one of these, you default to a basic stance. The mouse controlled your aimpoint, but depending on your stance it became a little difficult to target different places effectively. For instance, in a low stance the mouse became a little jittery when you tried to attack the head and each swing was slower. This resulted in a very fluid system, especially when you combined attacks with stance shifts (going from low to normal or high resulted in an uppercut, for example). Just an idea.

If anyone remembers the name of that game, I''d love to hear it.

I think perhaps with a little extension of conventional first person combat systems, we could create a satisfactory close combat system. Firstly, to make it a little more interesting, I think locational damage is needed, after all, in real life, different attacks in different body areas have differing effects.

Okay, so that should be simple enough, clicking on the appropriate area of the body could result in an attack on that area, fists could be a separate weapon from kicking attacks, which in turn are separate from melee weapon attacks. Each could have an alternate attack a la unreal tournament. Fists could be used conventionally to punch the selected area, while the alternate attack could be a throw when up close, or a different punch when at a slight distance. Kicks can be of differing types depending which area is aimed for, or a sweep when up close using the alternate attack. Switching between kicks and punches is as simple as switching weapons in a traditional first person shooter.

For those who don''t like twitch gameplay, allow them to rely on character skill by manually selecting an area to aim for on a manakin style representation of the opponent, and allowing the characters skill to determine hits and misses. The only problem here would be one of balance, however, both options are available to all players, so I think it would be resonably fair for players of both types. Character skill could also come into play with attacks made by players in a non-annoying way if you allow players with a higher skill to attack quicker, and/or allow them more advanced attack moves. I don''t think people generally like character skill affecting player accuracy, but if it affected attack speed, then it is represented without annoying. Players who have built up their character stats will be able to see a noticable improvement in ability without feeling cheated that their perfectly manually aimed strike just missed because of a random number generator.

I personally don''t like gesture systems for close combat because it can be so easy for gestures to be mistaken, ending up in the player performing a move completely different to that intended. The whole idea of a user interface is for it to not be noticeable, and for this to happen moves have to be clearly defined, which generally gesture systems aren''t suited to. I don''t think we need a million-and-one, accurate to real life martial arts moves to make a combat system interesting and fun, but we do need to make the moves available varied, easy to perform, and to have interesting results.

Cheers,

Steve AKA Mephs

The problem with melee in first person is most first person games with melee are first person shooters. Because characters rotate and move so fast, and your viewport is limited, its hard to land attacks. Even when you land attacks, most first person shooters don''t have much of a "stun" time, so once you hit someone you can''t keep hitting them.

I think if you slowed movement, had pretty small levels (somewhere between 1 on 1 death match levels and fighting game levels) and added significant stun time you could do a pretty good first person melee game. It would also be nice if you had movement that encouraged people to move up close to each other and defend rather than run away and dodge. For example, adding a dash that only works if you moving toward another player.

The biggest problem with melee combat is that there is a limit to how many controls a player can use (near) simultaneously. For a first person game, you need 2 axes for rotation, and 2 axes for translations (unless you don''t allow strafing). For a 3rd person game, you can replace the 2 rotational axes with a camera control and just have the character face their direction of motion, but if you''re adding a detailed aiming system, that''ll require an additional 2 axes for targeting. Either way, you''re using 4 axes just for basic mobility and aim point. If you then want to add posture control (crouch, kneel, jump, crawl, etc) that''s at least one more axis (assuming you don''t assign a button to each) then buttons to attack and block. With a lot of context sensitivity, you can get a system down to around 12 basic user inputs and be able to handle using a single melee weapon at a time with some dodging, but no off hand attacks or kicks...

To get a fluid melee system happening, I reckon you either need a revolutionary new control system (probably device too) - like a VR baton or something - or a large amount of intelligent context sensitive move selection with the intelligence either on the fly or during design - in which case, while you may have a large number of moves available in total, only a small proportion will be possible at any one time.

What''s the word on that new Jet Li game? It should try to do something fairly sophisticated in this direction, but I don''t know anyone that''s tried it.

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Original post by Iron Chef Carnage
What''s the word on that new Jet Li game? It should try to do something fairly sophisticated in this direction, but I don''t know anyone that''s tried it.

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That control scheme seemed interesting. I haven''t played the game either but according to gamespot...

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Fighting and shooting are the two types of scenarios you''ll encounter in Rise to Honor. Most of the game is focused on hand-to-hand combat, so you''re usually pitted against several foes at the same time. Much like Microsoft''s fairly recent Xbox game Grabbed by the Ghoulies, you''ll move around with the left analog stick, and you''ll attack by pushing the right analog stick in the direction of your opponent. Constant tapping will execute combos, and you can tap in different directions to attack multiple foes with one combo. In addition to this, you can block attacks, counter attacks, and pull off slow-motion combos (that feature more impressive attacks) by spending some of the juice on your adrenaline meter. The combat works well by handling the multiple-attackers-thing without resorting to any sort of lock-on requirement. But even with breakable environments and some objects that can be used as weapons, the combat feels overly simplified and really gets old fast. You''ll see the same combos again and again, and the enemy AI isn''t really interesting at all.

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Sounds like the game is lacking in too many other areas for the directional attacks to work. Maybe if you combined this with a better fighting engine it would work out better? Gamespot gave the game a 6.6 btw, which is basically in line with the games average.

Thanks for the great replies guys!

I agree that 3rd person is a preference over 1st person atm and that for proper melee we could do with a new input device.

Putting together what you guys said. What about a 3rd person system where the numbers 1-9 control your "stance". A stance is a preset choice of weapons/actions (e.g. the player may have set 1 to be left knife hand and right front kick).

If he holds down the left mouse button then the left knife hand would perform a block, (alternative for the right mouse button is a block with the right leg/hand/weapon/etc).

A double click with either button would perform an offensive action.

Taking it one more level. Perhaps the player can define the specific movement of the fist/weapon/kick while setting the stances (i.e. create his own animation or attack style) so the player can experiance their custom attacks/blocks. Or if too complicated control the speed/strength of the attacks.

[edited by - DragonWolf on February 19, 2004 10:24:23 PM]

That sounds hellishly complex, but if you could get it to work, it might be sweet.

This reminds me of three things. The first is Mark of Kri. That had a kick-ass melee combat system, complete with multiple targets, awesome special moves, a variety of weapons, and slo-mo attacks. It had its downsides, but was really sweet overall. It used a targetting system, and had three attack buttons. You could target guys for each button, or you could just target one or two guys and use the "dead" button as a combo modifier.

The second thing it reminds me of is True Crime. There were three "modes" that you could be in: walking around, kung-fu, and gunfighting. You could switch between them at will, and it would automatically switch in certain situations (like when you get punched in the face).

The third factor in this revelation is Mortal Kombat: Deadly Alliance. It had two styles of fighting and one weapon assigned to eat character, so for instance Johnny Cage has Karate, Jeet Kun Do (the standard Bruce Lee clone, found in every fighting game) and Nunchaku, and could switch from one to another with the L2 button (I think). Weapons were more powerful, but you took more damage when using them, so they weren''t always the best idea.

My idea is a hybrid between these three. First, I would take the combo system from Mark of Kri, and modify it a little. I''d get rid of the targetting, and use the "two sticks" system that Rise to Honor seems to employ, with one or two "modifier" buttons (maybe the L and R buttons) for more complex and devastating combos. Next, I''d incorporate the "quick switch" of control styles from True Crime. Have one or two hand-to-hand "styles" (a la Mortal Kombat), which feature different moves, and have the gun-fighting style, and maybe also a melee weapon style, so you''ve got kung fu, judo, a pistol and a short sword, and you switch between them using the D-pad.

This way, you avoid the staleness that Gamespot found in Rise to Honor, you get deep, engaging, but frenetic gameplay, and you can take the lethality of your actions into account, which is also a feature in True Crime. If you kill people that you could have incapacitated, you get a bad rating.

So, you get into a level, start out with some Kung-Fu butt whuppin'', with Judo thrown in for the tighter spaces, and then when the knives and chains come out you can either pop the proverbial cap or save your ammo by using your Hissatsu. Stealth, diversions, etc. are all valid, but not totally relevant, so I''ve neglected those.

I''m thinking of using a system that concentrates more on blocking that attacking.

Rather than a combo coming from a sequence of button presses by the player, it comes from a sequence of carefully blocked attacks by you or your opponent.

I should be able to reduce the interface down to just attack, block, movement, crouch and jump. With the player postion and timing being the important factors when trying to achieve a combo.

I don''t know if will work, its just an idea, but a simple and fun inface seems to be essential to any game.

For me the combat system used in The Two Towers and The Return of the King was simple yet effective. In order to kill enemies fast the best combo move relied on a parry followed by a kill move (button). I could see this extended to allow other combos as the result of blocks as StaticVoid is thinking.

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http://www.zmgames.com/

Prince of Persia: Sands of Time had a fairly nice combat system (despite attracting some criticism) - at least it got a big wow out of me for the first few fights before I spotted how the underlying move selection works and realised how limited it really is. The ability to rewind if you get into trouble could make up for much worse than the actual problems (the usual camera angle problems and the occasional misdirected attack). Anyway, the actual combat works (on PS2) by using the left stick to move around as usual, and to designate the direction of your next attack. R1 is block, Triangle uses the Dagger of Time to freeze, destroy or attack an opponent depending on how far through the game you are, and the enemy''s status. Square is a standard attack, which depending on your situation is either a sword stroke or a kick. Cross acts as a maneuver command - rolling or backflipping through empty space or running up and over an enemy (some enemies will knock you down if you try) leaving them open to a devastating combo. Attacks vary - a sword stroke if you are close and the opponent is on-side a kick to the off-side or rear if you are still recovering from a sword stroke, and an acrobatic flip, roll or lunge against an opponent at medium range (particularly when trying to finish a downed opponent with the Dagger). As I said, it''s all pretty simple, but the animations are very nice, and the choice of action by context was well thought out during the design, so the combat feels a lot more fluid than it could be - for the first couple of fights, you could almost be watching a martial arts movie.