Stuff

Anyway, everyone loves you here

Here''s hoping

Will be good though... It will give me some more time to code.

Once tutorial 28 is online, I think I''ll move more away from tutorials, and into large projects. I have so many things I want to do... I have a few game ideas (having already worked on 2 very big games as a silent programmer)... along with a few wicked demo ideas...

Hopefully the new path will show everyone how to put what they''ve learned into practical projects.

I''m sure there will still be tutorials however

Still so much to teach and so much for you guys to learn

Hmm.... Two very big games, eh? Care to share which? Or is that part of the "silent programmer" motif?
S.

Are you saying you don''t like my code

Never said I was an expert. Far from it. Just trying to teach as much as I can while figuring it out as I go

If your talking about MFC, OOP, etc... one day I''ll make the switch, my goal for now is to keep the new programmers focused on GL, and NOT so much C/C++

In regards to the games. They''re not huge like you might be thinking... just big games that have gone through the site. One of them was disasteroids... I had a little to do with some of the code/effects. The other is on the CD

Don't really know how to reply to your message. If you're saying it's good to have a strong understanding of C/C++ then yeah, I completely agree.

If you're ragging on the site using an unregistered account, then that's fine to. I have never claimed to be an elite programmer, and perhaps my code is sloppy, but it works, it's been revised millions of times, by many smart people, and it's still a work in progress. Mistakes are fixed, comments are sometimes incorrect. Who cares? Running this site isn't my job, everyone from day one has been told that I'm not an elite programmer. I'm learning new things about GL and at the same time I'm learning new things about C. When I started programming in Visual C, I knew nothing. I've never taken a course, I've never read a book. With that said, I think I'm doing pretty good. I've offered the 'Elite' programmers a chance to point out flaws many times. Not one reply. Those who are learning from my code, maybe even some of my bad habits. Once they get to a point where the code doesn't do what they want, I'm sure they'll move on, and learn from someone with more skill. For the time being, I'm doing my best, and if that's not good enough, those people that are critics don't have to visit. Pretty simple.

If you are attacking poor coding in general, I dont see the point. Everyone has bad habits, everyone has poor code, and no one can be perfect. I don't see the point in attacking someones code just because it's not up to my standards or the standards set by some book or course. I've seen some really bad code... and I've never said "your code is bad". I either offer suggestions, or appreciate the attempt!

Finally... if the code works that's all that matters to me. I don't think there's any major flaws in any of my code. Lots of things that can be done better, lots of optimizations, but no real poor examples of coding.

Anyone else care to comment? Would the original poster care to comment?

Edited by - NeHe on September 12, 2000 2:24:53 AM

Heya, I think whether ''anon'' likes NeHe''s coding style is besides the point.

Jeff is providing ''OpenGL'' tutorials, not ''C++ 101''.

Any savvy programmer who follows the tutes uses them to learn from and base his/her ideas on. This site from my perspective is not here to teach you how to code to some standard format. Most programmers have their own programming styles anyway, so what one person may think is unwieldy or confusing, others may find perfectly logical.

Therefore take his tutes and apply the (great) knowledge within to your own framework if you so desire.

You shouldn''t be tackling OpenGL if you don''t know how to code in C\C++ anyway, so I find your point against Jeff to be fairly irrelevent, except to try and blow your own horn.

Cel

Thanks Cel,

Guess I shouldn''t be asking people to get involved in a war, after all, I don''t even know if my code is being criticized. All I do know is that I spend a huge portion of my life, my day and my time trying to make these tutorials exciting and fun for everyone. Coding style never really entered my mind, and if you need to know, any time I am stuck with an explanation or a better way to do something I ask people that I know code better than myself. If I didn''t understand what the tutorial was doing I wouldn''t post it! I try to explain everything in english, I try to use lots of examples. Like Cel said, take what I am showing you and adapt it however you want. There are 10+ ports being done on a regular basis... the code is nothing like my code. People are adapting... there''s even MFC ports of the code!

Anyways... I won''t lie... the comments do bother me, and if that makes the original poster happy, that''s fine. The reason it bothers me is because I''ve always said I''m not a guru, I have always welcomed feedback on the the tutorials, and I have spent 2 years building this site. For someone to say in not so many words that it''s all crap, yeah, bothers me a bit.

But... for every one negative post I get alot more positive, so until everyone decides the site sucks, I''ll keep posting tutorials, news, links, etc.

Done chatting for a bit... been working on tutorial 26 for 2 days now (14+ hours) and I''d like to get my sloppy code posted as soon as possible {grin}.

Jeff Molofee ( NeHe )

Well Nehe, as long as you''re here posting on this topic maybe I can get some stuff out. (: I think I speak for just about every newbie to GL programming when I say I think you should cut to the chase and write up a tutorial on loading a model from a file (like persay .3ds or .wrl) with animation (i.e. let''s say I was making a Q*Bert game I want the character to do a little animation as they''re jumping from square to square). I''m sure I could look all night and find some code somewhere to do this or I could use my close to expiring copy of 3d Exploration to export a model to OGL code (which I think doesn''t do animation though, correct me if I''m wrong). But the fact remains that of all the OGL tutorials on the net yours are the best commented, best structured, and easiest to follow so I think we''d all here like to see that. Or how about releasing some of that source to like your dolphin demo and such? That would work just as well (although I think I know what the obvious answer to that will be (: ).

P.S. Let''s start a gaming/demo group!!! (:

You guys

Keeping me from getting anything done. Anyways... I know tons of you guys want to see models, and animation, and all that other great stuff, but when I started the site I had a clear path set. Start at the most basic level and work up to the most complex code available (or until I could no longer teach because the skill level was beyond what I knew). Models are coming. If I had listened to all the requests a year ago, we wouldn''t have 26 tutorials, there would be 3... setup, 3d polygons, full blown 3D engine with all the toppings I have alot of cool code sitting on my drive (most of it on the CD by the way {grin}). And yes, it does exactly what you guys want. But there are still a few topics that are VERY important, that need to be covered. We still have stencil buffers, shadows, and more. In regards to project code. I''m not hoarding it. I''ve given out more code than most people know. If I get a request like "hey man, wanna send me all your projects", then yeah, you probably wouldn''t get a reply, but if you said "how do you do this", or "I''m doing this, and I can''t figure it, can you send me projectx to have a look at", I''d probably say yeah.

Doesn''t mean flood me with requests guys

TTYL

NeHe go check your email (:

In Regards to the remarks about Jeff''s SLOOPY code - I have this to say - Jeff is a GREAT teacher/programmer

I had never programmed nor had I heard of C++ or OpenGL, but in about 2 hrs Jeff had taught me to make a basic cube spin (what so great about that, you ask ) the point is the next day while he was at work I made a simple little demo that would be Evil''s 1st GL demo on the NeHe Productions page - its nothing great,but the point is that I (a non programmer)
understood his code, and the way he taught it, enought to make something on my own,although my programming days are over. I enjoy everything he makes, and I enjoy the demos sent to him by people that are learning from NeHe Production, and let me tell you some of the demos KICK ASS. Isn''t that what is REALLY important, that people are learning from this site?

Have a Great Day

NeHe''s #1 Fan

Evil

Nehe,

I started doing your tutorials knowing nothing about c++, I had some programming experience (Pascal) and I understood the basic concepts of programming, but I didn't know c++. I started learning visual basic a while ago but I wasn't happy with the programs I made (a calculator is not a lot of fun).
Then I found your site and suddenly I could do all this great stuff. After I had done a couple of your tutorials I started adding my own stuff. And whenever I needed some new c++ code I just looked around the web or other people's code. Thus by learning OpenGL, I'm learning C++ bit by bit.
The point is that I don't really want to learn C++. C++ is just a tool for making cool things happen on my screen. I made my own model importer, I added direct input support, I made a GUI. All with no C++ knowledge.
So what if I don't write really good code. It gets the job done at a reasonable speed. I don't want to become a professional c++ programmer, I just want to make some 3D demos in my free time.
And you gave me that opportunity. So I for one, applaud you for doing such an excellent job in making Opengl accessible to me (and lots of other people).

Quo

Edited by - Quocain on September 12, 2000 12:10:08 PM

No matter how optimised the code is, as long as it runs and teaches how to do it .... If NeHe does all the works, we would need no more programmers

The TUTZ are very good and gives people idea how to do it, gives inpiration, which is much more important than a stupid cutnpaste code. With Nehe, you learn for real, you figure out how things work.

Hopefully this website still have a long life (all depends on Nehe) ... And the longer it will last, the more people will be greatful to Nehe (as I am) ....

Hey, about the question on the news page : could your code will be better ?


Yeah of course, you could call asm calls, it would be a lot more optimised and fast ... but hey, optimised code is harder to read, so, if you want to keep your adepts, DO NOT CHANGE YOUR WAY OF CODING IN THE TUTZ, Seriously, do not touch the code, make it easy to read ... like it is now.

I don''t think anyone would prefer a fast code almost unreadable.


Notes :
A tutorial on loading/saving external files would be great, even if it''s a bit off topic, much of use are missing code like you know, to make a level editor cuz it loads file and we use premade libraries ...

Nehe,

Just my opinion, but I think that your article layouts are among the best I''ve seen. Very clean and clear. I''m a bit too swamped right now to really get in to OpenGL right now (doing projects in DX currently), but I have checked out your site and tutorials and I can honestly say that you have done a terrific job. I look forward to learning OpenGL from your articles

Also, I don''t see any reason why you shouldn''t charge a bit more for your CD and stop the out-of-pocket expenses. The information you provide is certainly worth the money.

Best of Luck!

-Krylar
Christian Coders Network

Regarding the first Anonymous Poster and his request for "improved code and coding sytle":

It is truly unfortunate that he has not revealed his identity. If he would tell us who he is, we could all visit HIS carefully designed, attractively laid out web site, and benefit from the information contained in HIS 26 thoroughly commented, HTMLized OpenGL tutorials. But, alas, we are deprived of this privilege, simply because he is too humble to reveal his identity. Sigh.

NeHe is not here to teach anyone how to program. He is here to help people more quickly gain a cohesive understanding of how to use the OpenGL API, whether they are a newbie "armchair programmer" or an experienced software engineer. I don''t believe he''s trying to say "this is how to build a commercial application framework." I think all he''s saying is "this is how to use the OpenGL API."

While C++ and "proper coding style" produce a more robust, extendable application, when applied to a small tutorial, they can obscure what the author is trying to teach.

I remember once reading NeHe''s philosophy of why he does the site (I don''t remember where I read this; probably on the site somewhere). Basicly, it said that when he started learning OpenGL, he was discouraged by the snob treatment he received from the "elite" programmers on the ''net. He didn''t want it to be like this for other people new to OpenGL. That''s why he''s spent the many, many, MANY hours on the tutorials and site. That''s a deeply admirable and selfless motivation.

And, personally, I think NeHe''s coding style is pretty decent. If you want to see some truly bad code, look at some of the example code from Microsoft (the DirectX SDK samples, for example). I''ll take NeHe''s code any day.

--Marty Rabens

Only problem I have with the code is that on my midget monitor the comments don''t fit on one line. The tutorials look excellent and when I have the time I''ll give them some serious study.

I know I wouldn''t like it if someone logged onto my boards and flamed my code.

My Homepage

Wow... "You guys are the most descent bunch of people I''ve ever known" {famous big brother line}. Seriously though, you guys are the BEST! I mean that. I feel bad because mr.anon may have been making a point, but it''s good to know everyone is happy, and adapting the code to make it work for themselves. I appreciate all the feedback, and even more, I appreciate teh posts... it''s nice to see the forum so active.

I was in shock last night when I released tutorial 26... 115 visitors on at 2:30am. WOW!

If you enjoyed tutorial 26, just wait for 27 and 28... they both kick some serious a$$! We''re talking graphics so real looking you wont be able to tell it''s realtime animation.

No really Jeff,
I just read these posts and I wish I had read it right after that fucking SOB faceless anonymous poster posted his fucking frustrated umemployed s/w engineering rants on coding style so that I could have given him a piece of my butt before he ran out the back door. Pardon my language, but being in the software field for the last 6 years, i just get pissed off by people trying to put in words of design and software engineering ethics as if no one else is aware of it. You fuck face anonymous, if you are reading this post, be known that you the fuck need a Reality Check. Nehe is here single handedly trying to run a web site and if you think, people need a spoon feeding on every fucking thing on earth, why don''t you apply for a job at Nehe''s. I am sure at some point, Jeff would need some fashionable code designers to clean up the shit he makes in his code overnight.

Neo.