The ability to Automap your environment is an important one, Maps help when a player is lost. A player wondering around lost for ages is probably not having much fun. That said what is the right amount of detail for a map to have, does this depend to a large degree upon a. the player, b. the type of environment or c. the type & setting of the game ? In my opinion it depends upon all three of these things. A player might detest games with non-detailed automaps, whilst another would prefer games to have fewer details on their automaps, as it "adds to the experience of navigating and exploring their world." The graphical style of an automap in a science fiction game would be different to that in a dark-age fantasy game (probably). Environment based automaps, depending upon how much detail the player wanted an outdoors based environment could only record the main landmarks by which to navigate, and leave it up to the player and his compass. Or in a city, it would more of the environment so that it was less easy to be lost. One cool idea, is to make an onscreen "circular radar around player + mapping anything that has entered their line of sight" based automap in a mediaeval game not be comprised of Doom style straight lines, but to give the impression that it is being drawn with a quill pen ?

Good points. I think your map needs are definitely going to be based on how complex your map is. I''m in favor of being able to write things down on your map, tho'', no matter how detailed it is. Absent a very good reminder system (quest to-do log, or whatever) it can be cool to make notes on your map for future reference.

I like the quill idea as well. It''s in character.

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Just waiting for the mothership...

Thief 2 & Ultima Underworld have pretty cool maps.

Anyone can use my quill pen stroke automap drawn idea if they want to. If it makes their game better. Although I don't think it would be cool to actually see the pen, just the ink strokes.

Edited by - Ketchaval on September 15, 2000 9:52:40 PM

If your trying to stay with a look and feel, then I think you also need to follow the times. Meaning, if it is a midevil fantasy... then there really isn''t such a thing as automaping?!?

I know that doesn''t sit right for some people (including me). So... how do you do it in a way that makes sense?

For fantasy MMORPGs, there could be an cartographer occupation. These characters would create maps (actually their skill would just be how well the automap works) and other players could buy these maps. Once a person purchased a map, with the use of a compas or transit, the player could keep track of where he is in relation to the map...

If you have ever played UO, you know that the map sucks. That''s why several 3rd party programmers created mapping programs. Some even when so far as to let you track other players such as guild members or friends. Now that was cool!

I suppose what I am getting at is your talking about physical appearance and I am talking about historical correctness. Automaps just don''t fit into the "feel" of a game, but without some sort of map... the player is lost. How much of a tradeoff do you make in creating an automap? What level of technology would fit in the "feel" of the game?

I for one would like a map that allowed me to track party members, gave me a topographical view and allowed me to zoom in and out. I also like the ability to place notes on a map... again all of these things are in the 3rd party maps for UO.
I''ve even found a really nice 3rd party map for AC... it has all of these capabilities that I have mentioned.

I suppose the "feel" of the game should be sacrificed. Go ahead and build these things into the client (for a MMORPG).


Dave "Dak Lozar" Loeser

Check Out: GreatShot.com

I know there wasn''t any such thing as automapping in medieval times, but whether or not this is an issue really depends on whether you''re including the automap for the benefit of the player, or the benefit of the character. Either way, the implementation is going to be the same, so I don''t think it should matter whether or not the technology existed at the time in which the game is set. I mean, I think it''s safe to say that in medieval times, there was no such thing as menu boxes jumping out of nowhere, but those are in every RPG I can think of.

-Ironblayde
Aeon Software

For that matter, they didn''t have computers in medeival times . Back to the question, I think it all depends on how hard core you want your rpg. If you want an ultra hard core rpg, then you don''t include much in the way of user aids like auto mapping, but for sugar coated games (ala D2) automapping and other user luxery items are a must. I''d prefer a middle ground, but without automapping since it takes some of the fun out that table and paper games had. Just my two cents.

You also have to decide if you want a mapper. EverQuest would have been totally ruined if it came with an Ultima Online mapping radar.

I once read in Arkane magazine (a defunct RPG mag.), that the info that the DM gives the players should not be 100% accurate!
Are the players professional cartographers? gifted with laser room measuring techniques (cyclops?) ?, if not why should they be able to tell the exact dimensions of a location?

- If it is uneven with 5 by 8 walls, tell them that they are in a room 7 by 6..

It suggested that if the player''s map exactly matched the DM''s map... then something was wrong .

How would you apply this to an "automap"?

What''s wrong with automapping? It''s just like not bothering the player with the details of arranging the contents of a backpack or exactly how many bandages to apply to a wound.

Automapping simply implies that during a spare moment here and there the character jots a a few squiggles on a piece of paper. Perhaps to make it more realistic, if the character moves without making any stops, the map does not get filled in. If the player pauses every twnety seconds or so, the character can automatically keep the map up to date. Maybe a little animated icon in the lower right could indicate the character is updating the map.

As for accuracy, it shouldn''t be perfect. This accounts for bad judgement, imperfect memory, poor lighting, complex architecture, the speed which the character passed through an area, and stressed situations.

For even more realism, perhaps some paper and a pen should be necessary items in the character''s inventory. And for quick access, maybe a shirt pocket to keep them in. But as I said, the player probably shouldn''t be bothered with actually having to click on the object, and draw with the mouse. But if the player wants to, he can pull the map out and peruse it and write notes on it via keyboard input.

And why not have a small icon that tells the player that his character is taking a leek as well? And if the player didn''t stop every twenty seconds or so he would have trouble concentrating during battles...

Not that it is a bad idea to have the player draw his own map, but it is a game we are talking about after all, and a game isn''t supposed to be realistic, it''s supposed to be fun.