Finale is good if you're doing orchestra works. It has most of the features that you desire but I don't think you can import other VST into Finale; so you're looking at composing for a limited genre. (Correct me if I'm wrong)

Reason can't import VST, no scores; don't think this is what you would want. Stay away.

The main composing programs (within the $400 range, and should be able to shop around to pay within $300) are Cubase, Sonar, and Storm. A step up from that are Nuendo and ProTools which are used by the professionals include all the possible features you could possibily want but cost 1k+.

Er, Cubase runs over $600 I believe. Though, it's probably the best fully-featured sequencer around for the money. I believe it even supports score notation.

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Actually, I am 99% sure I would be able to write faster than you, considering I regularly participate in one hour music competitions where you HAVE to write fast. Of course, keep in mind, I'd not only be writing but creating and configuring samples, synth patches, equalizers, and other assorted effects (none of which you can do in NWC, to my knowledge). The piano roll was designed with maximum flexibility and speed in mind. Score notation is essentially outdated and only exists for the use of performance.

The reason why you should move away from notation is because good score editing programs are limited in their other capabilities. They're not designed with DX, AU, RTAS, and VST capability in mind. They're not designed with audio sequencing in mind. They're not designed with lots of MIDI and SYSEX features in mind. They're designed with readability and tradition in mind, so people don't have to use pen/pencil and paper to jot down musical ideas. You can keep telling yourself you don't need to do it, but that doesn't change the truth of the matter.

I hardly think FLStudio is a "very flawed" program. NWC and Sibelius, perhaps, but not FLStudio. It's extremely intuitive, flexible, and powerful, capable of virtually anything. Really, the only things it lacks now are easier audio recording/sequencing (which was only added in the latest version anyway), a channel freeze function, and better default plugins and samples. That's really it. It's as close to the perfect program as I've yet seen.

No, I'm not talking about the actual composing. I'm talking about actually inputting the notes into the program. NWC is way faster, and don't tell me otherwise.

And yes, I know that usually programs with notation don't have VST capabilities. That's exactly why I'm asking for one that does. Score notation is not outdated. I don't understand how you could say that.

And yes, saying FL Studio was flawed was not right. It's simply not what I want.



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This is my impression of the people at this forum. Instead of trying to help people, you try to explain to them how you're not going to help them, or tell them they're wrong and shouldn't need, or be asking for help. I don't understand. It doesn't help by being condescending like that either.

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Guitar tabs are a learning tool focusing on how to play rather than what to play and aren't exactly a notation that reflects the theory very well. Traditional notation is biased towards 8 note scales, specifically the major/ionian mode, and is pretty complicated for a beginner. I can appreciate that you want to stay with something you're skilled at, but for Fruity Loops users, there's very little utility to it.

Oh I see what you're saying there. But still. Notation is used worldwide. And like I said, I'm looking for notation. Maybe it would better if you suggest a program, instead of telling me why I shouldn't want notation.

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That's true, but to be fair, hardly anybody using FL will want to do that, so you can't blame the makers for not spending time on that aspect.

Again, I'm not blaming FL Studio. I'm just looking for something that fits my needs.

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Maybe not for you, but for 95% of people, the piano roll and step sequencer are so much faster than using traditional notation. There's no ambiguity there.

I don't know. Apparently no one has ever tried NWC here. Seriously try it. You can write so fast in it... I could write a 16th note bass drum run in 1 second. It would take me over a minute with a sequencer (keep in mind that I'm kinda slow =/)

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Of course you could. And I could probably do it in FL just as fast as you can in NWC. (I think most musicians doing anything of complexity would do all their FL stuff in the piano roll anyway.) I know it's tempting to want something that does the best of everything, but you have to bear in mind that things are aimed at very different audiences, and therefore you have to learn the ins and outs of each tool.

Again, no. I strongly doubt you could do it faster than you could in NWC. And yes, I know that just about every program is aimed for a specific target, instead of a broad one. But there's always hope.




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What you might be looking for is Finale. That's what I use and I love it. On the site it is $600 dollars, but I believe you can go to other sites and purchase if for about $400, unless you are eligible for the academic discount, in which case it costs around $200.

Go to www.finalemusic.com and try the demo.

Thank you. The first help I've gotten in this topic.

I've heard of Finale. Thanks for reminding me about that. It was in the back of my mind. I'll check it out.

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Finale is good if you're doing orchestra works. It has most of the features that you desire but I don't think you can import other VST into Finale; so you're looking at composing for a limited genre. (Correct me if I'm wrong)

Reason can't import VST, no scores; don't think this is what you would want. Stay away.

The main composing programs (within the $400 range, and should be able to shop around to pay within $300) are Cubase, Sonar, and Storm. A step up from that are Nuendo and ProTools which are used by the professionals include all the possible features you could possibily want but cost 1k+.

Mmmm yeah... I'll have to check it out.

Hmmm... nobody here has mentioned Sonar. I'm not certain, but I think Sonar lets you do notation. I use Sonar 3 Pro for everything. And Sonar 4 is now out. AFAIK, it does everything you're looking for. I highly recommend you download the demo from www.cakewalk.com.

Here's a little tip to save you a TRUCK LOAD of money if you decide to buy it: Go to www.soundfont.com and buy the old Cakewalk 8. It's something like $25. Then take the serial number you get from that purchase, and it will allow you to qualify for the "registered Cakewalk customer" upgrade discount. Sonar 4 Pro usually sells for $959, but with this upgrade deal, you'll only have to pay $349! You just saved $610!!! All by buying a ~$25 program.

Anyway, don't hesitate to get the demo and check it out. It's awesome.

Quote: No, I'm not talking about the actual composing. I'm talking about actually inputting the notes into the program. NWC is way faster, and don't tell me otherwise.

I can almost guarantee I can write faster with FL. I actually challenged someone once; we each recorded, from the time we set down the first note, our sequencing of "happy birthday", and I beat him by a LONG shot, with him using some notation program and me using FL.

Quote: I can almost guarantee I can write faster with FL. I actually challenged someone once; we each recorded, from the time we set down the first note, our sequencing of "happy birthday", and I beat him by a LONG shot, with him using some notation program and me using FL.

I'm not going to waste my time challenging you. The point is that I specifically cannot compose faster in FL Studio than in NWC.


Anyway, back in my line of responses.

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Er, Cubase runs over $600 I believe. Though, it's probably the best fully-featured sequencer around for the money. I believe it even supports score notation.

Oh I forgot to mention this. I have Cubasis. It comes with Garritan Personal Orchestra.

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Hmmm... nobody here has mentioned Sonar. I'm not certain, but I think Sonar lets you do notation. I use Sonar 3 Pro for everything. And Sonar 4 is now out. AFAIK, it does everything you're looking for. I highly recommend you download the demo from www.cakewalk.com.

Here's a little tip to save you a TRUCK LOAD of money if you decide to buy it: Go to www.soundfont.com and buy the old Cakewalk 8. It's something like $25. Then take the serial number you get from that purchase, and it will allow you to qualify for the "registered Cakewalk customer" upgrade discount. Sonar 4 Pro usually sells for $959, but with this upgrade deal, you'll only have to pay $349! You just saved $610!!! All by buying a ~$25 program.

Anyway, don't hesitate to get the demo and check it out. It's awesome.

Yeah, thanks. I'll look into it. I might not be able to buy it right away. But I'll know where to go when I start truly developing.

Until then, does any have any... well, cheaper alternatives? =/

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I think I'm going to have to stick with NWC and GPO for a while. I can "route" GPO through NWC. GPO is basically a sound fount. A playback device. It's just that NWC's notation kinda sucks.

Yeah I think the end result is, I'm going to have to stick with the combination of FL Studio (for cool effects and electronica instruments), NWC (for actuallly writing the music), and Sibelius (for documenting it). Yes, it's going to be a pain in the ass, but I need to save money for my project. This topic was just to check if I could save time, and get it all in one program.

EDIT* Could someone show me how to do triplets in FL? ^^


Thanks
Dr. Mean

Cubase is MUCH more fully featured than Cubasis. Cubasis is a really stripped down version of Cubase SX. You may want to try it out at some point, because it's excellent software. I'm not sure why you need to use both NWC *and* Sibeliius, either. Can't you just use Sibelius? Or, for example, use NWC to write the notes, import to FL as a MIDI, and do your VST/effects in there?

For triplets in FL, simply change the quantization to 1/4 step and.. sequence a triplet. Very simple. You may have to increase the zoom on the piano roll to see what you are doing, of course.

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Cubase is MUCH more fully featured than Cubasis. Cubasis is a really stripped down version of Cubase SX. You may want to try it out at some point, because it's excellent software. I'm not sure why you need to use both NWC *and* Sibeliius, either. Can't you just use Sibelius? Or, for example, use NWC to write the notes, import to FL as a MIDI, and do your VST/effects in there?

For triplets in FL, simply change the quantization to 1/4 step and.. sequence a triplet. Very simple. You may have to increase the zoom on the piano roll to see what you are doing, of course.

Oh yeah... I forgot Cubase and Cubasis aren't the same thing. =/

And I need NWC and Sibelius. I'll write the notes in NWC, import it to FL and use the VSTs there, then import it to Sibelius and do the notation there.

And triplets... Yeah they have to perfectly divide a quarter note into 3 parts. I don't see how to do that.

If you want a cheaper alternative, you could still get that $25 or so Cakewalk I mentioned. But it's VERY stripped down and antiquated compared to Sonar 4. And I'm not sure if it'll host DXis or VSTs, so if you have GPO, it may not work for it. Still, you can download the demo for it from www.soundfont.com and try it before you buy it. But the interface for it is similar to Sonar's if you just want to get used to the interface.

BTW, if you haven't already purchased GPO, you ought to also consider EWQLSO Silver (www.soundsonline.com). It's about the same price, and has higher quality samples IMHO. But if you're wanting to do more classical (as opposed to modern film score type stuff) then GPO may be better for you.

Quote: And triplets... Yeah they have to perfectly divide a quarter note into 3 parts. I don't see how to do that.

Let me make an example file using the FL keys.

http://www.soundtempest.net/z/triplets.flp

And if you absolutely can't bear to re-sequence that every time (took me a few seconds), just save the pattern data so you can drag it from the browser.

Also, everyone I have talked to that uses sample banks for composing orchestral music says that GPO is total garbage. Now, I've never used it, but that's just what they say. They recommend EWQLS, as another poster mentioned, or, if you want to go a bit higher, EWQLG (gold).