Out of curiousity, do you guys reckon that there is a very strong relationship between the number of titles a person have ever played in his life time, and the quality of the games he designs? And how many titles have you guys played in your lifetime?

hmmm yes it is a stong relationship
hmmmmmmmmmmm VERY HARD question i'll say about 70-80 games and about 10-15 games i finished (or play for a long period)

Well, I don't think it's that easy. It also depends on the type of games you play. For instance, if I play a lot of RPG's, when I try to make a FPS, it's gonna suck. Playing a wide variety of games can help broaden your horizons as far as giving you ideas you wouldn't have had otherwise, but some things just don't mix too well.

I think what's crucial is to try _everything_. And by _everything_ I don't mean "hey, I played Doom 1, Doom 2, AND Doom 3!" - I mean all the obscure sleeper hits, the underdogs that had one freaking awesome feature that kept people playing. There are tons of really innovative games with really innovative features that fall by the wayside and are never replicated. Most of my favourite games were made in the 90s, not because I'm a nostalgic twit, but because they never got any sequels or clones (or if they did, they were made by people who didn't "get" the underlying logic of the game, and only copied the surface design - Monolith's AvsP, I'm looking in your direction). In particular: always play the originator of the concept. You'll see what exactly they were thinking when it was designed, not the watered down version in derivative sequels.

I've got a taste for sleeper hits. I go bargain bin diving all the time, and come out with tons of gems - oddly, the PS1 is by far the best platform for innovative 2-player sleeper hits with ingenious and unreplecated game design.

I could rattle off a hundred games that were completely groundbreaking and since forgotten.

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I could rattle off a hundred games that were completely groundbreaking and since forgotten.

How about a top 10 list of forgotten innovative games to check out?

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It's fairly important, and as has been said, it's important to play a wide variety of games, not just a large number. General creativity also plays a large role - for example, children who were good at making up little "games" to occupy themselves when bored will likely be naturally predisposed towards coming up with creative gameplay ideas, as opposed to those children who instead either simply remained bored, or returned to the same familiar toys and played with them in exactly the same way. Board games, and various card games, etc. can also provide much the same skillset.

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Original post by Steven yeah Out of curiousity, do you guys reckon that there is a very strong relationship between the number of titles a person have ever played in his life time, and the quality of the games he designs?

Sure. The more kinds of books you read, the better a writer you can invariably become. Nobody learns English spontaneously. Similarly, the more kinds of games you play, the better your own can be.

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And how many titles have you guys played in your lifetime?

I've beaten 192 games and probably "completed" several dozen more; you can't really 'beat' games like The Sims and SimCity 4000, so I consider it 'completed' when I've either defeated the AI or (if there's no opponent per se, like SimCity 2000) thrived for a while on the hardest difficulty level. 122 were consoles, and the other 70 were for the PC.

Well, to be more specific you'd have to pick a genre?

Okay, if I had to pick 10 sleeper hits... well, to pick 10, I'll have to stick to the more popular ones, as the smaller ones are mostly good for one single feature. Most of these you'll have heard of, if only in passing.

Armored Core - its not a sleeper hit if you're a Playstation fan, the series has gained some momentum on the PS2. The mech design system consistently produces gorgeous looking mechs (which actually exhibit the parts you put onto them) and the combat is mindblowingly fast. In the end, the game feels like a smooth cross between Virtual On and Heavy Gear II.

Liero - godfather of Soldat. Soldat, unfortunately, missed some of the finer points in copying Liero. The gameplay is what FPS players would call "spammy" - most of the best weapons are grenade variants - but it is incredbly strategic. The weapon inventory system is ingenious. If you don't want to get the old DOS version, try Liero Xtreme, but stick to the "classic" weaponsets and only play 1-on-1 underground to capture the original feel... you miss the depth of play if you play in open spaces with more players.

Metal Warriors - a sidescroller mech game for the SNES. What made the game really interesting was the deathmatch mode, and that the mechs had vastly different locomotive systems.

Z - while the key gameplay aspect of sector-taking-rush in an RTS was replicated in Dawn of War, Warlords Battlecry, and Z2: Steel Soldiers, they all toned it down. In Z, the territory rush is _everything_. Buildings have clocks on them to tell you when the next unit will come out, and so quite often the game is intense down to the second as you try to claim a sector before the tank is completed. One unique aspect of Z is that it took a massive positive-feedback loop and made it into an asset instead of a weakness - the games are incredibly short and sweet.

BattleZone - you probably played this one. The first major FPS/RTS hybrid, but also possibly the best. In my opinion the best part of the game is the resource system - gathering is incredibly fast, and dead wreckages leave tons of resource, so much of the game focuses on surgical strikes and then harvesting the mess as fast as you can. Unfortunately the game had tons of flaws and bugs.

Half-Life: Turbo - a dead simple, unknown, tiny, stupid mod for Half-Life 1. It gets old fast. Why is it interesting? Because nobody considered how violent you could make a racing game and still have it be fun. The key point in the game is this - facing doesn't matter, so you can whip around and drive backwards and open up on your pursuer while navigating the track in reverse - and there are plenty of long straightaways where this is appropriate. It practically begs to be developed into a full game.

Unholy War. What the Star Control team did for the Playstation. While there are tons of games that do incredible innovations on the "3d platformer brawl" concept (Destrega and Powerstone II are excellent ones), Unholy War covers the most ground. Essentially, its like Star Control 1 or Archon 2 (two boardgame/action hyrbids from the same team) except with modern graphics and gameplay, using the "Mario 64" style of 3d platformer control.

Psygnosis Lander. If you own a flightstick with throttle (a rudder helps too, but not really needed), you simply must try this game. They've got it over on Underdogs. It applies pure-Newtonian vacuum physics to a gravitational environment. An incredibly challenging and exhillerating game.

Master of Magic. This one has gained a lot of popularity since its pretty-much-ignored heyday. Arguably the best 4X ever made. Buildings follow an RTS-like construction tree instead of by research, and research allows you to access spells. Spells are used in combat command, or as global effects, or to enchant your cities, or to create special units. Its funny because it feels like a really simple, solid strategy game (a race-based techless 4X with construction trees for buildings) with the complex magic system tacked on, but incredibly well tacked-on so that it wraps around and envelopes the gameplay.

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Original post by Pxtl Master of Magic. This one has gained a lot of popularity since its pretty-much-ignored heyday. Arguably the best 4X ever made. ...

From your list MoM is the only one I've played, but what is 4X?

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Original post by reana1 Quote: Original post by Pxtl Master of Magic. This one has gained a lot of popularity since its pretty-much-ignored heyday. Arguably the best 4X ever made. ... From your list MoM is the only one I've played, but what is 4X?

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From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. 4X refers to the genre of strategy games which deal with building a galactic empire. 4X stands for: 1. eXplore 2. eXpand 3. eXploit 4. eXterminate

basically all the Civ clones.

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Out of curiousity, do you guys reckon that there is a very strong relationship between the number of titles a person have ever played in his life time, and the quality of the games he designs?

I'd say there is a very strong relationship between the two. Its good to examine other peoples work for concepts, idea's, and even bits of art you might like to help improve and build upon your own idea's.

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And how many titles have you guys played in your lifetime?

Oh gods, well.. I'm not sure how many i've beaten, prbly 100-200, but i've played over 1000+ games, most of which are still stored on my Harddrive.

I like most any Genre except sports and racing games, i find sports to be redundant, if i wanted to throw a football or go golfing i'd go outside and do it. The same somewhat applies to racing games, but i still play a few of those.

As for favorite games:

1. Ultima Underworld 1 & 2
Overshadowed by the release of Doom, UW used alot of great features that the industry has virtually ignored. The premise is that your are the Avatar, and you've been framed in the kidnapping of the Barons daughter, for which you are cast into the depths of the Stygian Abyss. The only way out is to either find the Barons daughter, or rot forever within the Abyss's walls. You wander around in a realtime first person perspective controlled with only the mouse, scavenging for food, weapons, armor, and trading with local denizens (some of which have rather questionable backgrounds), all in your search for the princess. The Underdogs used to have it listed, but i can't seem to find it there anymore.. :(

2. Little Big Adventure 1 & 2 (AKA: Twinsen)
I really liked these isometric games, they were simple but adventuristicly fun with a nice atmosphere. You can still find Twinsen 1 on the underdogs.

3. Notrium
A little known game who's emphasis is survival. You play 1 of 4 races on a planet you've just crashlanded on, you have to find food, warmth/shelter, combine wreckage and fend of the local animal life. Great game to kill an hour with.

4. Princess Maker 2
I know, its a little wierd, but there's something fun about raising a girl to be a princess. There doesn't seem to be much (at least in the west) games involving building one single character like this. The overall goal is to have her do chores, and to pay for classes in an attempt to manage her life and relationships to get jiggy with the prince and make her a Princess. The fun part is that she doesn't have to be a princess, there are 72 different endings featuring which carrier she chooses based on your efforts.

5. Wrath Of Earth
I really liked this game for its features and gameplay. It uses a kind of heavily modified Wolfenstine 3D engine. You play as a comando droped onto a planet that's lost contact, etc, etc. The fun part is your suit. You have all your weapons when you start off, shields and a powersupply. Your suit however, is solar powered, yes, solar powered. By finding a bright enough light source you can recharge your batteries and suits systems when you've taken a monster beating. This feature alone makes certain area's a real challenge trying to keep your suit powered in the frozen wastelands so you won't die from the cold.
You can still find the title for download on the underdogs.

6. WarWinds 1 & 2
This games been mislabed as a Warcraft clone, but once you play the game you'll see its actually a very unique and quite immersive world nothing like Warcraft. You have a limited number of units that gain experience, you then train them to become different classes, send them to perform research, or upgrade them with implants.

7. X-Com: Enemy Unknown
I know there are sequels, i know they have prettier graphics, but this one is still one of my favorites. Nothing says fun like vaporizing a building you -think- an aliens in. >:D

8. Abuse
Great side scrolling shooter, but the company went belly up so there are no sequels.

9. Fallout Series
Now these are great games, i had read about them for along time, but when i finally managed to get a copy i was totally hooked. The game uses an isometric view system, but uses a rather unusual realtime/turn-based combat system. Lovely post-apocalyptic humor/atmosphere to. :D

10. Outpost 2
They did a very good use of combining colony management and some level of action (even if both opposing sides are exactly the same). It can be a real challenge keeping your moral up with all the disasters going on. Another part i really liked was the compelling ingame novella included with it.