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Global Warming

Started by Cibressus Jan 12, 2005 at 11:53 PM 106 replies 15.5k views
Original Post
Cibressus
Cibressus
Global Warming For years people have been saying that global warming is neigh, and the evidence has been their, however, it's always been far to far away for anyone to realistically care. I live in Toronto Canada. When you think of Canada you think of the cold artic, and for the most part your right, but this is Toronto, it's the southern most major city and a mer 1500KM (800M) from the gulf of Mexico, and more then 3000KM from the arctic circle, not the arctic, but the arctic circle. A few nights ago on January 10th 2005 I was sitting out in the hot tub meditating, enjoying one of the comforts of modern living, when i realized something was very wrong. I look around me, and I realized I could not see the light of Toronto, which is understandable, except it was winter, when the snow should have reflected all of the light into the air, the problem was their was no snow on the ground. This was extremely odd, for it was January, and no snow. When I first arrived in Toronto, in 1997 it snowed so hard in November that I was not allowed to go outside, we must have had 4 feet of snow that year. Now fast forward 7 years, and i have noticed every year less and less snow, until this year, their was none. Having found out the source of the problem, i went back to my meditation. No, their was still something wrong. I looked around once more, and realized, their was tree frogs chirping. It was January and it had become so warm that the tree frogs had come out of their hibernation. Every night for about three nights the chirping got less and less until I assume, they all died. Now for those nay sayers against global warming, sighting there is no proof, consider that this summer their will be no tree frogs. Consider that the polar bears are starving to death and consider the Innu can no longer hunt on the ice drifts. This is but the first of the major cities to get hit by global warming, it is the fourth largest city in North America. So what are we to do? Of course you'll say it's my generations responsibility to fix it. But i say you this. If we are to follow in your foot steps, and you are to be our examples, and mentors, how can you expect us to fix your problem. You will now of course say, it's not your generations fault, it was the generation before you. They will of course say without that pollution we wouldn't have the society we have today. I ask you, when will the cycle of excuses end? We can not except to grow forever. At some point in our growth we must say, enough luxury is enough. We need to decide how much luxury we want and for how many years we can support that life style. I do not believe our current life style can be supported for more then a generation. So, is our generation the generation to ruin the world for the next one?
Salsa
Salsa
Psh, the world could use a few more degrees of heat if you ask me.
Kult House - Fresh Production Media
Densun
Densun
Quote:
Original post by Cibressus
So, is our generation the generation to ruin the world for the next one?

Countries and business are hoping so. With the northern ice cap melting back, countries will have a chance to grab more land, and business will be able to sail transport ships in those northern waters, saving moeny and time compared to current routes.

Quote:
Original post by Cibressus
So, is our generation the generation to ruin the world for the next one?

Maybe it's not the fault of any generation. It could just be because of natural climate cycles.
Tron3k
Tron3k
Quote:
Original post by Salsa
Psh, the world could use a few more degrees of heat if you ask me.
The natural world will certainly be able to adjust to higher temperatures - it will, in fact, flourish. The question is whether those who live on the coast will adjust to living in scuba suits. [grin]
“[The clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man” - Thomas Jefferson
Cibressus
Cibressus
Quote:
Original post by mtw

Quote:
Original post by Cibressus
So, is our generation the generation to ruin the world for the next one?

Maybe it's not the fault of any generation. It could just be because of natural climate cycles.


do we realy want to find that out?
Witchcraven
Witchcraven
The modern way is not a good way to live. That sounds like a subjective statement, but the modern way does not agree with the natural world. Although I bet there will be a generation or so more before a drastic lifestyle change is needed by humans.

I suppose there are 2 ways to do it right. Living off the land like native people all over the world, which worked for a very long time, or like we do now, but somehow not consuming a ton. Which will probably not happen. Humans reproduce like animals. In the presence of excessive food, animal populations grow. We do the same thing. And the modern way of life commonly produces more food than is needed. That is obviously not the only reason to human population growth, but I dont feel like talking about the others at the moment.

Either way would probably be very diffucult. The first one because of the radical change, that and surface water is contaminated. Everything would have to be boiled first. Or more. The second one would be worse, as some barbaric "pruning" would have to take place to the human population. I would say the second option is more likely, and the pruning will probably happen due to overdrawing resources in a few hundred years.

IMHO, global warming will not be the thing that "destroys the world"


Sigh...I liked my rating.
--------------------------I present for tribute this haiku:Inane Ravings OfThe Haunting JubilationA Mad Engineer©Copyright 2005 ExtrariusAll Rights Reserved
Cibressus
Cibressus
Quote:
Original post by Tron3k
Quote:
Original post by Salsa
Psh, the world could use a few more degrees of heat if you ask me.
The natural world will certainly be able to adjust to higher temperatures - it will, in fact, flourish. The question is whether those who live on the coast will adjust to living in scuba suits. [grin]


tell that to the hundreds if not thousands of polar bears which starved to death this year because the ice floats melted.
Tron3k
Tron3k
Of course, during any time of change, many organisms will die. But it is a well known fact that the natural world flourishes during higher temperatures. For example, plants are able to carry out photosynthesis more rapidly.
“[The clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man” - Thomas Jefferson
JesseLFraser
JesseLFraser
I'm up north in Orillia, and it is 10 Degrees Cesuis, and there is lightning and thunder-I have never in my 21 years of life seen thunder in the middle of winter, or it this warm for so long. It has been this way up north for two weeks.

Not only that winter didn't start until the early/middle of December, when it usually starts in October/November. There have been extreme fluxuations of temperature lately...
Those who leave the womb at birthand those who enter their source at death,of these; three out of ten celebrate life,three out of ten celebrate death,and three out of ten simply go from life to death.What is the reason for this?Because they are afraid of dying,therefore they can not live.- From the Tao Te Ching
perfectly_dark
perfectly_dark
I live near Toronto as well, I don't remember having any REAL snow in the last few years...the odd blizzard but not much, certainly not as much as other surrounding places. The GTA doesn't get much snow though, many of the surrounding places get tons, even down south, NY gets massive snow every year. I think Barrie gets a bunc h as well. My biggest problem is I gotta drive all the way to Quebec to get good skiing :D
_the_phantom_
_the_phantom_
the problem is, we dont have enuff infomation.
For all we know this could be a totally natural event, the earth changes temperature all the time, we havent been around long enuff to say 'yep, we've caused this its too fast'.

Thats not to say we should keep on living how we do, that would be insane, but we still cant point to two things and say 'cause' and 'effect'.

Plus for all we know it could self correct, they are predicting that within the next 50 years the gulf stream will stop, at which point warm currents stop coming up from the equator and the northern section of the world will drop in temperature as it loses a large feed of warm air.
Tron3k
Tron3k
Consider that carbon dioxide contributes to 55% of the greenhouse effect. Consider also that since 1860, human beings have increased the carbon dioxide content of the entire planet's atmosphere by 30%, by burning fossil fuels. Humans have done something that previously was only achievable in geological time. I am constantly surprised at the number of people who think there is some basis for a natural explanation of the steady temperature increases over the past few decades. Why is this even open to debate?

EDIT: A source

As of 2004, the atmospheric CO2 concentration has increased about 35 percent since the start of the Industrial Revolution, with an increase of 20 percent since 1958, based on measurements taken at Mauna Loa. Burning fossil fuels such as coal and petroleum is the leading cause of increased man-made CO2; deforestation the second major cause.

The global warming hypothesis predicts that increased amounts of CO2 in the atmosphere tend to enhance the greenhouse effect and thus contribute to global warming.


This one says there has been a 35% increase. Also note this image.

EDIT2: Note correlation between red and blue lines. Also note that our current CO2 level is about 370 ppm which seems rather extreme in context. I'm not sure if it matters that this sample was taken in Antarctica - it may.
“[The clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man” - Thomas Jefferson
Salsa
Salsa
Quote:
Original post by Cibressus
tell that to the hundreds if not thousands of polar bears which starved to death this year because the ice floats melted.


But think of all the cute baby penguins and seals that can grow up in a world without fear.
Kult House - Fresh Production Media
_the_phantom_
_the_phantom_
Quote:
Original post by Tron3k
Consider that carbon dioxide contributes to 55% of the greenhouse effect. Consider also that since 1860, human beings have increased the carbon dioxide content of the entire planet's atmosphere by 30%, by burning fossil fuels. Humans have done something that previously was only achievable in geological time. I am constantly surprised at the number of people who think there is some basis for a natural explanation of the steady temperature increases over the past few decades. Why is this even open to debate?


Because we arent sure.
I remember reading a few years back in science that we had underestimated the ability for the oceans to deal with the levels of CO2 and that infact things were progressing as they thought.

Quote:

EDIT2: Note correlation between red and blue lines. Also note that our current CO2 level is about 370 ppm which seems rather extreme in context. I'm not sure if it matters that this sample was taken in Antarctica - it may.


And if you look at that graph you'll see that CO2 normally spikes first and then temperature hold, yet in the last 20,000 years the temperature went high and dropped slowly, even while the CO2 levels carried on rising.
This doesnt fit the pattern of the rest of the graph and its little things like this which lead to doubt as to if we are a cause at all, a major factor or a minor factor in the whole cycle.
Tron3k
Tron3k
Quote:
Original post by _the_phantom_
Because we arent sure.
I remember reading a few years back in science that we had underestimated the ability for the oceans to deal with the levels of CO2 and that in fact things were progressing as they thought.
From the Global Warming article at Wikipedia:

"The current scientific consensus is that most of the warming observed over the last 50 years is attributable to human activities."

The oceans don't come into this. We're talking about actual measurable carbon dioxide that's sitting in the atmosphere all around you right now. Man, I go through all the trouble to make that post up there and still people are waffling. Carbon dioxide is the principal factor in global warming!

Quote:
Quote:

EDIT2: Note correlation between red and blue lines. Also note that our current CO2 level is about 370 ppm which seems rather extreme in context. I'm not sure if it matters that this sample was taken in Antarctica - it may.


And if you look at that graph you'll see that CO2 normally spikes first and then temperature hold, yet in the last 20,000 years the temperature went high and dropped slowly, even while the CO2 levels carried on rising.
This doesnt fit the pattern of the rest of the graph and its little things like this which lead to doubt as to if we are a cause at all, a major factor or a minor factor in the whole cycle.
I don't see this CO2-spikes-first thing. That graph is not nearly distinct enough to see patterns like that. And look dude, it's pretty easy for scientists to calculate how carbon dioxide reflects radiation. This is not rocket science, it's fucking obvious stuff. So let me reiterate: a 30% increase in CO2 in almost an instant, geologically, and you're telling me you doubt if we are a factor? When I've told you all this stuff about CO2 and global warming? Maybe I should stop wasting my time with people like you.
“[The clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man” - Thomas Jefferson
Jesper T
Jesper T
It seems to be more and more certain that we contribute to global warming. For example the extremely rainy and windy winter we've had in Norway this "winter" has been been attributed to low pressure centers south of Greenland and Iceland, which again was caused by the heating of the Indian Ocean, which again is caused by our pollution of the atmosphere.
Weather models are getting better, and they more or less agree that we will get more and more extreme weather in the future. Under the condition that we keep letting out greenhouse gases.

It seems to be a lot of people around (especially on GDNet, probably has something to do with high education levels) that are instinctively jumping to defend status quo, it being politic, software or climate debates. It is much more rewarding to open your eyes and use what your observe to form your own opinion. Sure, the opinion you form may be wrong, but if everyone was like you we'd still believe the earth was flat.
Eelco
Eelco
in my childhood we used to get some snow around here, but i havnt seen any for many many years.

its a simple fact humans are warming the earth. yes, there are natural changes aswell, but they generally dont happen over the timespan of two centuries, to make a gross understaement.

is the world going to explode? no.
are a lot of animals going to die? probably, but i dont care. it has happened countless times before, i consider that nature.

however, it IS going to be quite messy and costly development. as climate changes, what was once good farmland will become useless, and the other way around. people will have to adapt aswell as nature, which sucks because we could be spending our time so much better.
Phineas
Phineas
Strange, where I live (Nevada, USA) we have had a very unusually high amount of snow this winter. Could this be another indicator of global warming, or just some cyclic weather occurence (heavy winter every 20-25 years)?
Witchcraven
Witchcraven
Name one thing humans have better to do with their time? I can think of very few problems humans have that we didnt create. And dont say cure for disease. We probably have as muc or more disease now than ever. Not to say I dont appriciate medecine. I sure would like anesthetic if I broke a leg or something.
--------------------------I present for tribute this haiku:Inane Ravings OfThe Haunting JubilationA Mad Engineer©Copyright 2005 ExtrariusAll Rights Reserved
LessBread
LessBread
A major study of Global Climate is due to be released in the coming months. I watched some of the Congressional hearings reporting on the preliminary findings of these reports on CSPAN last month. Big business and it's fans already know that they aren't gonna like what this study has to say, so they've begun their media counter offensives. At the tip of the spear is a new book by Michael Crichton (of Jurassic Park fame), about evil environmentalists conjuring up global warming as a purely public relations campaign. Although Crichton's book is a work of fiction, he supplies footnotes to detail his rejection of global climate disruption. Needlesstosay, the publication of this book has given the right wing noise machine the excuse it needs to go into battle defending their corporate masters in the oil and other natural resource extraction industries. Strangely enough, the title of Crichton's book is "State of Fear" - which sounds to me like it deals with rampant media manipulation with tales of terrorist threats as part of a plan for establishing absolute social control - but alas that's not at all what it's about.
"I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes." - the Laughing Man

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