OK, C-Junkie wrote up in the DOC thread about a web of skills that you could just branch to create new character classes. A game would, in effect, be devoid of character classes, and you (the player) would choose skills that you would like to have. The way I see it working is something like this: In the centre of your ''web'' you have a small number of general skills. From each of these skills, you can specialise in something that just requires the first skill as its prerequisite, or you can specialise in a cross-combination of two of the previously defined skills. <First level Skill 1>, <First level Skill 2>, ... <Second level Skill 1> - Prerequisite <First level Skill 1> <Second level Skill 2> - Prerequisite <First level Skill 1> <Second level Skill 3> - Prerequisite <First level Skill 1> AND <First level Skill 2> <Second level Skill 4> - Prerequisite <First level Skill 1> AND <First level Skill 2> <Second level Skill 5> - Prerequisite <First level Skill 2> What do you think? Is this a viable system? -Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - Site:"The Philosophers'' Stone of Programming Alchemy" - IOL The future of RPGs - Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche           

Skill webs are a viable system. I would represent them graphically if I wanted to document them.

Allowing the user free choice is good, but watch the game balance. You don''t want players selecting a set of skills that make the game unwinnable from teh start.

Make the game irrelevant of the skills chosen... That way the story progresses with any player, not just a specially skilled one. There should never be a point where a player cannot go on.. Seeing as my game doesn''t involve killing as its primary objective, I don''t see too many situations where a lack of skill could hinder advancement...

As for graphical - damn right, but I had nowhere to U/L a pic and I didn''t have the time to draw one. If I stick it in the doc then it will definitely have a pic. It is just too unmaintainable otherwise..

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - Site:"The Philosophers'' Stone of Programming Alchemy" - IOL
The future of RPGs - Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche
          

Just another addition you may have missed:

Each skill on this web keeps track of its very own "experience" based on its use. This solves the problem of a cleric going out and killing people to advance in level, actually there IS no character level. Each skill has its own experience score, and the next skills after this in the web could be "made available" at exp. 2500, then a more advanced, but different one at 15000.
Perhaps I''ll explain why wannabe-clerics(seeing as there are no classes anymore) won''t fight anymore:
If he picks somethings like Minor Incantaions of Xantha (a goddess), then in order to gain more ability in the spells of the Goddess Xantha, he would need to USE those spells and gain experience *with THOSE spells* in order to exceed the limit needed to go on to, say, Minor Sorcery Channeling. THEN get trained by someone who knows this skill. (perhaps an experience limit needed in order to train someone?) Fighting would gain only in the General Combat root.

And I agree, this needs a graphic. I''ll see about posting on to this thread soon....

there should be something to keep magic users from powermaxing, though.. if all they have to do to become more powerful is cast more spells, they may stand in one place casting a fireball at the ground. while i suppose this is viable conceptually, it would have a major effect on the game balance. maybe the player could improve in certain skills not just based on use, but the effect, e.g. casting heal wounds on nothing has little or no effect, but healing a comrade''s wounds would have an effect...

------------------------
IUnknown *pUnkOuter

"Try the best you can
try the best you can
the best you can is good enough"
--Radiohead

The way I stop people from maxxing by casting at the ground is this: Don''t allow a cast unless there is battle (or enemies) nearby... If they can''t hit the baddies then they become stupider .. Just a though

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - Site:"The Philosophers'' Stone of Programming Alchemy" - IOL
The future of RPGs - Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche
          

I think that''s a poor solution. You''re back to being one step away from murder based xp. Likewise, it doesn''t cover non-combat spells. And there''s nothing to prevent a fire-mage and healer from teaming up, alternately wounding and healing an enemy.

I can think of a few ways around this, but none of them pretty.

1) Track a separate ''training'' value for each skill, which represents the maximum the player can reach at a normal rate of xp progression for that skill. When this limit is reached, the player cna still improve, but only very slowly. The player can up the limit by spending time away from the dungeons (studying or practicing). So now the player has ''levels'' for each skill. This could get complicated if you plan on having a large skill web.

2) Severe limits on the number of spells you can cast. See Dungeons and Dragons for an example. It was once a day for the MUs. I never agreed with the system, but it does enforce balance.

3) Each spell has a fixed effect - once you know it, you know it, and that portion of the skill tree doesn;t have xp.

4) The one that I like is based on some threads here a while ago. Magic pollution. Pumping out a lot of fire magic doesn''t just scorch the ground, it produces a lot of fire magic into the local environment. Which means a lot more forest fires. And local bonfire that tend to spring out of control. A few spontaneous fire sprites or elementals start popping up. Some magical creatures might adapt to local fluxes and become more in tune with fire magic (read: fire resistant). The local blacksmith curses because his forge becomes unpredictable, meaning fewer quality weapons will be available.

The last one I like the best, but it would take a lot of pre-planning to do well. Oh, and don''t tell the player about it, just give some vague hints, otherwise they''ll be looking for the optimum balance.

What? Casting a spell at the ground? Well, I hadn't thought of that, but still: normal restrictions on spell casting apply. What ever those may be, my favorite is: regeants, mana, and of course...gods. You don't want to piss off some God for Using magic for absolutely no purpose! (this applys to M-Us too, not only clerics) After all, there is alwasy a god you could pissed off. Say... "God of Nature???" you're kiiling my grass!! Die!

ok perhaps not in that case...
Oh yeah, And the "exp" rewarded for casting a spell could also have to do with its effect. Throw fireballs at the ground has no effect on almost anything, unless you cave in a mine. Then you get experience for doing that...

Edited by - C-Junkie on November 7, 2000 5:02:47 PM

AP - first off, good ideas... I like them a lot... But as for the stepping towards murder-based, um... NO.

The reason why I used it as an example is because everyone understands. If you are talking about a ''heal'' spell then the only way to actually improve is to heal... If you keep casting it to no effect then it just becomes crapper (it becomes more attune to healing nothing). Anyway, I prefer the magical balance idea... Cool if it could actually be designed perfectly

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - Site:"The Philosophers'' Stone of Programming Alchemy" - IOL
The future of RPGs - Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche