There seems to be a loss of fresh ideas in rants about loss of fresh ideas in <insert genre here>. Always the same vague statements about gameplay being "boring" and "monotonous," yet never any concrete analyses or suggestions on how to correct the situation. In addition, the posters always seem to have 25-cent educations, as their spelling, grammar, phrasing and linguistic precision consistently leave much to be desired. It's such a played out rant genre!

</sarcasm>


Fresh ideas are significantly overrated. Fresh variations are what matter, and are what we get most of the time in the real world.

there may be a lot of interesting ideas, a lot more than spoken out. I think the problem is
- a lot of people have good ideas, but after talking to someone doing game-dev (often just someone knows what if-else is) they are told that their ideas are totally not doable or simply just stupid, therefore never spoken out
- a lot of people have knowledge of computer science (not only programming, but also net infrastructure, data communication models etc.) have ideas, but as soon as they are thinking more into the details, they see that some point of it isnt doable at all (e.g. have 1000 player on a battlefield fighting in realtime), at least not at the moment, and therefore throw away that idea
- a lot of people have knowledge and idea and after first detailed thought about it, they came to the point, that the whole thing requires a big company, a multi million investment just to see the first running versions, therefore throw it away, or sold it out to some small companies for nothing, just to see it later implemented as a 5,99 euro (here in europe we use that ;)) homemade game in the next supermaket between the soaps and breads.

I've played quite a few MMORPG's, from Everquest to Star Wars Galaxies, (though not with the expansion) and Anarchy Online. Funnily enough, the biggest problems I have with these games, are NOT the fact that they turn into 'grind-fests', (though, I still agree that it can be improved upon), but that they don't do enough to keep the player interested when it reaches that point.

The biggest failing of all the MMORPG's I've played at this point in the game, is that the co-operative multiplayer side kinda sucks.

Think about that for a second...

The main reason for playing an MMORPG is to play with other people, (and maybe against other people too, but it's not essential)! One of the biggest problems I have with all the MMORPG's I've played, is that instead of letting you play it solo, then REWARDING you for playing it multi-player, they tend to 'penalise' players for playing the game with other people too much, (which is one of the reasons kill/loot stealing /camping etc. is so prevalent), aswell as playing solo.

The co-operative side of the MMORPG, for me, is where the biggest ideas need to happen.

The other main problem I have with all these MMORPGS, is that they still haven't learned from previous mistakes, made by earlier games, (such as Diablo2 for instance), which is another reason kill/loot stealing/camping etc. is still a big problem.

But if you want my suggestions for dealing with these problems, then I have some :) And just like the problems I designed my game to solve, they're pretty old - (4/5 years). I finally put them all together though and post them here:

http://www.ztgd.net/shwmessage.aspx?ForumID=10&MessageID=5203

It's still WIP though ;)

Darren Tomlyn,

Fiddle-player and Tune-writer
http://www.ic-musicmedia.com/DarrenTomlyn

I agree about the setting. Far too many MMORPGs use a combination of Norse, Greek, and Tolkein myth, and little or nothing else. Either we need a new Tolkein (he did, after all, revitalize the elves and invent the hobbits), or we need to use a different era. The problem with modern-day settings is that, well, they're *normal* - there's nothing new. We have... humans, streets, and buildings. Cyberpunk type stories could be converted, but even this is awfully like modern day life, sometimes. Fusing technology into humans isn't that unexpected any more.

I do *not* have any good suggestions, but I agree that we have a problem.

I agree with Oluseyi's point that it's an evolution. Seldomly will there be "fresh" ideas. There are many reasons for this. Firstly, it's an enormous risk to take to do something completely new. Second, it's all been done before. New ideas aren't easy to come up with. I haven't seen any in this thread yet.

There are even RTS MMOs. Check out Mankind. It's been around for years!

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As computing power increases, game play will eventually become dynamic in it's own right. If you are just starting, it's an RPG. But if you've been playing for six months and you're now a Level 58 Warlock, King of Albertni, it becomes an RTS based on the fact that you control your kingdom. The RPG aspect is definitely still there, but it's taken a backseat to the new game play.

In a way, a game displayed at the GDC, Will Wright's Spore, is like this concept. In the beginning you play a pac-manish game, where you eat food to fill your evolution meter. Then it changes into a different type of game(don't remember right now). Finally it changes to an RTSish game.

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For a view of where I got this sort of idea, read "Tom Clancy's Net Force: The Deadliest Game". It may be fiction, but I believe it is an accurate representation of the MMO of the future.

I loved this book. I sooooooo wish the game in it was real!

Also, I just think some themes are used way too much in certain genres, such as Sci-Fi in FPS(name one that doesn't have a sci-fi theme) and Fantasy in MMORPG/RPG.

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Original post by Mavrick71 Also, I just think some themes are used way too much in certain genres, such as Sci-Fi in FPS(name one that doesn't have a sci-fi theme) and Fantasy in MMORPG/RPG.

Heretic, Hexen, Goldeneye (and I'm sure there are numerous others). I agree though, more variation of themes would be a reasonable starting point to making some different games. This is largely a cosmetic change however, and many players will realise this; what's really needed is some variation on the standard gameplay.

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Original post by Kazgoroth I agree though, more variation of themes would be a reasonable starting point to making some different games. This is largely a cosmetic change however, and many players will realise this; what's really needed is some variation on the standard gameplay.

The 'problem' with MMORPG's, (and maybe any pay-to-play MMO game), is that you cannot depend on the graphics for sales or to keep people playing, like you can with individual 'normal' games - (though of course it still helps). You cannot depend on graphics to maintain a players interest for anything over a month. Unfortuantely, since nearly all the MMORPG's are paid for monthly, 1 month's revenues won't really help much. You need to keep players interested and playing for as long as possible, for months, if not years, if possible.

And this all comes down to GAMEPLAY. There are a LOT of issues, and reasons why keeping a game interesting for this long is very hard, but the good news atm, is that all the MMORPG's available atm have problems in this area. Which means if another game came out, with better gameplay and good enough graphics - the market is there to take...

Like I said before - an important thing is not to repeat too many of the same mistakes currently plaguing the MMORPG field. The downside to this, is that most of them would need to be dealt with in the initial design phase, so might not be easy - (though I've had a go myself). But I, like many other people I know, am fed up of playing game after game that have the same problems...

Like I also said before (and will continue to say until someone listens ;) ), THE biggest problem with current MMORPG's, is with the co-operative gameplay. (Or lack, thereof ;) ). An MMORPG is supposed to emphasise people playing together - yet so many of them, (in fact all that I know of), in some-way penalise the players for playing together, even if it's just basic things like loot-stealing, which i've seen happen, (and have had happen to), very often in all the games I've played - which is BAD.

We can talk about new ideas, and the lack there-of until the cows come home, but until all the current problems are fixed, adding more things that are new, is just going to create more problems, not solve them. And if they're basic gameplay issues, there's no guarantee that they can be fixed in patches etc. either. The trick is to add just enough, while fixing as much as possible. Unfortuantely I don't see this happening....

Anyway, like I said - if you want to see my new ideas, read this:

http://www.ztgd.net/shwmessage.aspx?ForumID=10&MessageID=5203

So don't say you haven't seen any ideas smr ;) (Though I could always post it here if you want - it'd take a lot of room up though ;) ).

Darren Tomlyn

Fiddle-player and Tune-writer
http://www.ic-musicmedia.com/DarrenTomlyn

Doh - I thought it accepted HTML links? :(

Sounds like a bunch of whinning to me.

There are tons of good MMO's out there and trying to categorize them all as "boring" or "hack'n'slash" is crude.

I don't understand where you people are comming from. It almost sounds like you've played one or two MMO's and have given up hope that any in the current market are "fun". The fact is that millions upon millions of people play these games, and have fun.

MMORPG's are NOT a CRPG with millions of people thrown in. They also don't all discourace co-operative play. HELLO - have you played Shadowbane (It's all about team vs. team), Asheron's Call 2 you get bonuses for grouping with other people AND it allows you to do harder quests that you can't do solo which are much more fun in my opinion.

Just because a game has some monotonous tasks (like wood cutting) doesn't mean it lacks other aspects that are fun. And I have freinds who, when they played UO, all they did was play Crafter characters, and they had fun.

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If "getting loot" is your main reason for playing, you shouldn't be in a group in the first place.

WHY NOT?

If a game is structured and balanced properly, being in a party should mean EVERY MEMBER OF THE PARTY IS GUARANTEED to get better loot, simply because you can take on better opponents, (which is the most basic reason for being in a party to begin with!). The biggest problem is that generally the loot isn't shared amongst the party effectively - (if at all)...

As for Asheron's Call 2 giving bonuses for being in a party - GOOD. I'm afraid to say I haven't played that particular game, so I was unaware of this, but either way, it's still just a start...

The first thing is to get the players to actually play together in teams as much as possible, if not all the time. The next thing is to encourage as much teamwork (within the teams) as possible. (Which is where all the 'stacks' come in, in my idea for a game - but even I will admit that it's still just the beginning, though - much more can (and needs) to be done in this area...).

Darren Tomlyn
Tune-writer and Fiddle-player
http://www.ic-musicmedia.com/DarrenTomlyn