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INSIDE: Andre' LaMothe

Started by MindWipe 54 replies 7.1k views
Original Post
MindWipe
MindWipe
Ok, first apologizes that I havn't done anything really cool with my XGS yet, I will and I will show you. As I've got a computer job that's been enough computing for me, been busy trying have some sort of social life lately. Anyway, I've been checking the XGS forums almost on a daily basis and André LaMothe has shared some very intressting stuff there. I don't know about you but I'm allways intressted in reading comments of a genious like LaMothe. So I thought I'd share it here with you to let you read his thought, so this is mostly a copy paste thread. First of, André LaMothe's post on "Can/Do computers think?"
Quote:
Original post Your brain is a machine, you are a machine, machines think. We have the technology to exactly copy a neuron, let's replace 1 neuron in your brain -- is it still you? Yes, now 2, 3, 4, 10,000,000,000 -- is it still you yes. Thinking is just a word we use to describe an incredibly complex process. Not only will machines "think", they will easily surpase us since we will design them to. I suggest everyone takes advantage of the next 30 years while we are still the dominant species on this planet, after that you can count the days until we are just interesting parasites to the machines that we create in our own image that will be superior to us. Its simply evolution and envitable, we are destined to re-create ourselves. Nature created single cell organisms, then multicell, then organells etc. Then "we" (a collection of these smaller objects) take the next step and model ourselves and improve the driving goal of the "design" of the universe is to continue to evolve and create. We are just a step in this evolution, a normal function of the universe. We just have such huge egos' we can't see that we are nothing more than machines with a function just like any other naturally occuring process in the universe. Also, we use about 1-10% of our brain at any one time, the comment the teacher said is also true, our brains are incredibly redundant, therefore, we use it all, but don't need it all. If you were to destroy 90% or more of it (certain) regions you wouldn't know the difference. There was an interesting case of this, someone can look it up of a girl that literally had 5-10% of a normal brain volume, spinal fluid or some other defect as I recall caused the expansion in the center of the brain outward, until her entire brain mass was literally a "skin" pressing against her skull and not only was she smart, I recall she was a chemist or chemistry major and very intelligent. There are so many things that are alive. Internet is alive. The galaxy is alive. The universe is alive. etc. This is a fractal universe from your cells in your body to entire galaxies, all living, growing, changing, "thinking" on some scale. Just because we can "see" or understand how something else thinks (including ourselves) doens't mean it doesn't think. Anyway, this is a pretty serious concept. For the past 10,000 - 100,000 years humans have pretty much done the same thing, go to work, have babies, etc. But, in the last 30 years we have completely altered our trajectory and we are by our own hands going to alter our evolution 10-100M years manually in the next 30-50 years. Andre'
I don't agree with him, I'm a beliver in this case and belives man's got a soul and not just a huge bunch of neurons. Next off about the quality of life as a programmer. Here's a scary quote from this quality of life thread:
Quote:
Original post So its really a lose-lose situtation, 1 in 100,000 people that try to start a biz will be successful, 1 in 1000 of those will actually become wealthy, and 1 in 100 of those will actually have a life -- so the bottom line is that if the "work" isn't worth it then I suggest just working for the man, in the end you will be more happy. Any reasonable size project takes 2-3 years to complete, it takes 2-3 projects to get somewhere (if you are VERY lucky). And most people can barely survive 1 project, let alone 3. And most men cave in under pressure of girlfriends, etc. few are willing to do go the distance for their passion. Andre'
It's like either or, girlfriend and life or computer job :S And let's go on to how LaMothe started out and his typical day. Apparently the guy only sleeps 4h O_o but I have a very hard time beliving it.
Quote:
Original post This is really a simple question with a simple answer -- its about risk. I never worked for the man really. My first job was at macdonalds when I was 15, I quit in 1 month and got a job selling software at software etc., but I sold more software than any adult salesmen in the chain, so the manager of my store fired me, the reason I found out later was the owner was going to give me his job, then I got a job as lead tech (16 now) at san jose computer and fixed Atari 400, 800, etc.s. I did this for a few months and basically started consulting for people. I would do little odd programming jobs etc., so at a young age I was trying to optimize my income and not be controlled. Then serious consulting started when I was about 18, 19 -- with a demo tape I made on VHS of my programming (unheard of in those days) I landed an R&D job at Software Publishing Corp and basically consulted for them as a contractor developing really advanced product concepts for 3-5 years in the future, that gave me the latitude to experiment with all kinds of stuff. Then I basically finished and then started consulting all the time, I would open the paper, find the most expensive job, go interview and do it for 3 months or so. In the meantime, I was always trying to start little biz's, but my friends would never have the maturity or stamina, so I could never find a partner and that always sucked. So I would write 8-bit games in machine language for the atari, sell them as shareware, etc. build disk drives and resell them, etc. Anyway, I am skipping a ton of details, but at some point in 1992/3 I wanted to write some books since I had made so many games, so I did the tricks and teach yourself books etc. then started xtreme games and wanted to do 1st person shooter, I did rex blade I,II,III, but had to do the game in 45 days and was under funded, I realized its better to do value games (at that time no one knew what that meant), so I started on that path since they were easy to make, took a month and you could actually make money. And then it goes on and on, the XGDC, nurve networks, etc. The bottom line is I finish what I start. And that is the single most important thing. Also, to take risk. You will NEVER have enough money, enough time, enough experience, you just have to say WTF and try. Also, you have to have the stamina to work all day to make money to support yourself and work all night on your biz. And you have to try thing after thing after thing. Also, never partner with more than 1-2 people, they will never finish anything and unless you all have the same goals it won't work out. Best to do it by youself, or with 1 partner. And of course, the practical reality is there is no time for all this, 24 hours is hardly enough, so girlfriends, family, friends, tv all have to take a far 2nd place to your goal in life. Time will pass so fast you will wonder where it went. I like to gauge my success by what have I done for myself, what have I done to help others, how much money have I made, how much do my ideas penetrate the world, and finally how much tangible "product" do I build. Of course, at the end of all this is you will truly be happy, very few people get there though As far as my day, I go to bed at 8-9am, get back up at 11am or so, I just lay there. Then I just work all day, I think, build things, read, try to make a task list and do at least 30-60 things a day. In between, workout 3-4 times a week, try to eat healthy, in my case this just means watching carbs, I never eat fast foods or soft drinks, etc. and then during the weekends I try to do stuff for a couple hours on a social basis, so I have so little time for that stuff, I tend to date very busy women that you have to make an appointment with practically since they are always doing stuff. I don't date needy chicks that have nothing to do all day, no jobs, etc. I like busy people. So that's about it, as far as funding, I have paid for everything myself, no one has ever once helped me out -- pisses me off, but true. But, then again no one helped out the founders of intuit, or cisco, or atari, and many others, so its par for the course. Lastly, I would say that you MUST make a schedule, deadlines and deliverables. And do everything you say you will. You MAY THINK you are good at something, or could do something, but until you actually try it you will never know. The funny thing is that they things you take for granted, the things you think are easy are actually hard. So my usual challenge is simple. If you want to be an entrepreneur and control your own destiny. Do this -- start a biz -- anything, an in 1-2 months get a client, have a meeting, talk another human being into giving you money, a complete stranger, then execute the contract, finish the work (or sell the product) and make $1. If you can do that repeatedly, and scale it then you have a biz. Now, some advice on what to do -- Do not manufacture anything, its way to hard and too expensive. Do not write software and try to sell it, nearly impossible and not worth the time, unless you have a market and / or the money to drive a ton of traffic to your site. Downloads on download.com mean jack, paying customers are another story and hard to get. Do start a service oriented biz. If you are a programmer, artist, web designer, if you can't get a job in 1 week then you suck, plain and simple. So if you know what you're doing, just get out there and look for clients and start doing it. Don't worry about companies, and LLCs, and all that crap, start simple, use you name or a DBA, and a sole proprietorship, make 1000 phone calls, send out 1000 letters and or email, that will get you 1-3 jobs, and that's it. Then after a while you can see the terrain in the market and you can start to develop software or products rather than construct them on spec and let someone elses marketings and sales machine distribute your work as part of a larger product. The worst thing you can do is overplan and think and think and think. Just get out there and do it, people think themselves out of stuff. You will make mistakes, but so what, who cares. Andre'
Heh, I do like how he's very straightforward:
Quote:
From previous quote Do start a service oriented biz. If you are a programmer, artist, web designer, if you can't get a job in 1 week then you suck, plain and simple. So if you know what you're doing, just get out there and look for clients and start doing it.
There we had it, really intressting and unique thoughts he has and somewhat scary for us computer-guys, eh? Or just alot of bullshit... /MindWipe [Edited by - MindWipe on April 3, 2005 1:49:30 PM]
"To some its a six-pack, to me it's a support group."
boolean
boolean
Quote:

Your brain is a machine, you are a machine, machines think. We have the technology to exactly copy a neuron, let's replace 1 neuron in your brain -- is it still you? Yes, now 2, 3, 4, 10,000,000,000 -- is it still you yes


I love this sort of thinking!

How are we any different from a very advanced robot? How are we NOT robots? What makes us so certain we are living? If robots lived their own lives for millions of years, wouldn't they be convinced that they are what life really is? If we made a completely organic robot, is he a living being? If not, why not? How can we be so sure that when we meet another life form that we are not just non-living life forms to them (like if we met a race of robots)? Maybe real living creations are something completely different that we have never even thought of, that make it painfully obvious that we have no idea what real 'life' is.

I love this stuff, hence the reason for my random story
MindWipe
MindWipe
Quote:
Original post by boolean
Quote:

Your brain is a machine, you are a machine, machines think. We have the technology to exactly copy a neuron, let's replace 1 neuron in your brain -- is it still you? Yes, now 2, 3, 4, 10,000,000,000 -- is it still you yes


I love this sort of thinking!

How are we any different from a very advanced robot? How are we NOT robots? What makes us so certain we are living? If robots lived their own lives for millions of years, wouldn't they be convinced that they are what life really is? If we made a completely organic robot, is he a living being? If not, why not? How can we be so sure that when we meet another life form that we are not just non-living life forms to them (like if we met a race of robots)? Maybe real living creations are something completely different that we have never even thought of, that make it painfully obvious that we have no idea what real 'life' is.

I love this stuff, hence the reason for my random story


Eh, robots are just machines that do stuff based on stuff. Gaaah, now're at this topic again. I mean, an advance robot is as much alive as VERY simple robot.

But we're more than that, we've got souls. Period. But ofcourse that's just my belif blah blah blah blah blah

/MindWipe

"To some its a six-pack, to me it's a support group."
baldurk
baldurk
Suggested reading: Isaac Asimov - The Bicentennial Man.

Don't watch the film. Just dont. Seriously. The short story is light-years better.
ArchangelMorph
ArchangelMorph
Quote:

Your brain is a machine, you are a machine, machines think. We have the technology to exactly copy a neuron, let's replace 1 neuron in your brain -- is it still you? Yes, now 2, 3, 4, 10,000,000,000 -- is it still you yes


The guy is genius, but that doesn't mean he's correct in this particular rant..

I agree that the brain is a machine, granted a very complex and detailed one at that, but that doesn't mean you can liken humans with computers to such an extend as he has..

I mean, what sets apart humans from computers (and even most of the animal kingdom) is our ability to reason, our ability to feel emotions such as pain, lust, anger, fear, jealousy, hunger and mant more.. Also the fact that humans can truely experience something which no other thing on this earth can experience and that is 'Love'..

Now some people think love is an emotion but thats rabbish, love isn't a chemical response to some form of stimuli like emotions are.. Love is something much much deeper which can be expressed in a variety of ways.. even animals can't do it (and i'm sure as heck my PC doesn't have any feelings for anyone at the moment..)

So the differences in humans and animals/computers are several and I personally don't see how they can be catagorised in the same context..

And about the whole idea of us creating robots to surpass us, I don't believe that either because how can you build into something the abilities of free thought/reasoning and the conscious mind when its not even fully understood how it works in us yet? (& personally I doubt it ever will be fully)..

Quote:
We are just a step in this evolution, a normal function of the universe. We just have such huge egos' we can't see that we are nothing more than machines with a function just like any other naturally occuring process in the universe.


Well speak for yourself LaMothe, because if he believed in evolution theory (which I don't by the way..) then he'd see past this idea of thinking..

Quote:
Not only will machines "think", they will easily surpase us since we will design them to. I suggest everyone takes advantage of the next 30 years while we are still the dominant species on this planet, after that you can count the days until we are just interesting parasites to the machines that we create in our own image that will be superior to us.

Well if this is the kind of future you want to look forward to then good luck to you.. Personally I don't agree with this statement or the idea that man will someday make a computer that will surpass him.. Anyone with half a brain would realise that 99% of the achievements of mankind fulfill only one of a few specific purposes:

- The self-edification of a nation or mankind as a whole (e.g. sending a man to the moon.. it served no other purpose but for mankind to be able to say "oh look what I can do!"..)

- The improvement of quality of living for mankind as a whole (e.g. creating tech to allow long distance travel/communication or to generally do labourous tasks for us or do them quicker..)

- The self-gratification of an individual or for mankind as a whole (e.g. creating something for the purpose of entertainment, something that boosts ones ego or gives sexual/general fulfillment..)

So unless the creation of a super intelligent AI that could reason for itself would fulfill one of these desires then it would never be created.. And since creating such a thing to fulfill these desires of man would be impossible since a computer that thinks and reasons for itself would no longer be controllable as it ("made in our own image" as LaMothe suggested..) would reason only to fulfill these desires for itself and thus function independently of its creators purpose for its "life"..

So nope, I don't agree with the majority of his statements.. except for the fact about the girl with a good portion of her brain missing, thats true.. Also I watch a TV show which showed a guy who had literally 60% of his head blown off and he is still alive today (he had to have a considerable amountr of plastic surgery however to make himself look "presentable" again..)

LaMothe is still a genius in games development though.. ;D

EDIT:

Just to clarify on the topic of humans creating an advanced robot AI that would surpass us.. I'm not specifically saying that its not possible.. I'm just stating my reasoning for why I believe its not probable.. Thats why I doubt it will ever happen..
Daerax
Daerax
MindWipe, you left the gas on again and spilled kerosene everywhere.[grin] I hope no one lights a match or flicks a lighter...

For what its worth I think Andre Lamothe is a good guy because of what he does. His books bring complete beginners into the know of what it takes to make a game [how much there is to do, Im not talking about complex abstract engine design here] and the different components therein. He makes it easier for those who are new to this whole thing to get into the business of making games for themselves. I think anyone who elucidates the high arts of a black magic [by introducing the Lesser Magics required for the High Arts] for the masses is worthy of note.

It is also good that he has his opinions. I also have opinions. If the set of his posted opinion is defined as A and mine as B then Ø = S = A ∩ B
jsgcdude
jsgcdude
Thanks, MW, that was good reading.

ie Super Intelligent robots: Lamoth is obviously a 'transhumanist' a philosophy about the future of life first espoused by Vernor Vinge some time ago. Specifically Lamoth is talking about the creation of a 'super intelligence' but there are other paths to the singularity. Personally I disagree also; if super intellegence were possible in any form why haven't we seen it? If does exist and it's so far beyond us then it doens't matter, you may as well be a Christian.
------------------
CTar
CTar
Quote:

I agree that the brain is a machine, granted a very complex and detailed one at that, but that doesn't mean you can liken humans with computers to such an extend as he has..

I mean, what sets apart humans from computers (and even most of the animal kingdom) is our ability to reason, our ability to feel emotions such as pain, lust, anger, fear, jealousy, hunger and mant more.. Also the fact that humans can truely experience something which no other thing on this earth can experience and that is 'Love'..

Now some people think love is an emotion but thats rabbish, love isn't a chemical response to some form of stimuli like emotions are.. Love is something much much deeper which can be expressed in a variety of ways.. even animals can't do it (and i'm sure as heck my PC doesn't have any feelings for anyone at the moment..)

So the differences in humans and animals/computers are several and I personally don't see how they can be catagorised in the same context..


Love is a complicated thing, but when you( or anyone else) fall in love with someone they are usually pretty much like the last one. This might be because when the brain "checks" if you should fall in love with this man/woman it use logic to see if you should fall in love with her/him.

Think about it, don't you think it would be possible to code "love". And saying that your PC doesn't have feelings for you doesn't really matter, neither do I think the corpses have feelings for anyone, you need a "program" to control the PC/corpse and emulate love.

Quote:

And about the whole idea of us creating robots to surpass us, I don't believe that either because how can you build into something the abilities of free thought/reasoning and the conscious mind when its not even fully understood how it works in us yet? (& personally I doubt it ever will be fully)..


Wouldn't it be possible to create a robot smarter than us? Probably, if it are better than us at learning (reprogramming itself) it might also become better than us. A human might need to do a thing 10 times before they really understand it, if the robot only needed do to it once it would quickly be better than the human. If you programmed smarter "logical rules" into the robot's "brain" it'll quickly evolve and become better than us.
mikeman
mikeman
Quote:

How are we any different from a very advanced robot? How are we NOT robots?


How can we compare the human mind with the "mind" of a robot? It's impossible. We know exactly how a robot works, because we made it. We know close to nothing about the human mind. We just know some things about how memories are stored, the structure of it(neurons,etc...) and that's that. We don't know its essence, what makes our mind "tick". What's going on inside the neurons. Is it just chemistry? Or is it quantum physics(that is, things that happen in microscale determine our actions)? If it's the latter, then there is a huge fundamental difference from any machine that has ever been built.
shmoove
shmoove
Quote:
Original post by ArchangelMorph
I mean, what sets apart humans from computers (and even most of the animal kingdom) is our ability to reason, our ability to feel emotions such as pain, lust, anger, fear, jealousy, hunger and mant more.. Also the fact that humans can truely experience something which no other thing on this earth can experience and that is 'Love'..

Now some people think love is an emotion but thats rabbish, love isn't a chemical response to some form of stimuli like emotions are.. Love is something much much deeper which can be expressed in a variety of ways.. even animals can't do it (and i'm sure as heck my PC doesn't have any feelings for anyone at the moment..)

The only thing I know for sure about this is that neither you nor I know anything for sure about this. I haven't seen any proof of this transcendental nature of love. For all I know it could well be just a specific mix of electrochemical reactions in our bodies (same goes for all the other emotions).

Quote:
Original post by ArchangelMorph
So the differences in humans and animals/computers are several and I personally don't see how they can be catagorised in the same context..

And about the whole idea of us creating robots to surpass us, I don't believe that either because how can you build into something the abilities of free thought/reasoning and the conscious mind when its not even fully understood how it works in us yet? (& personally I doubt it ever will be fully)..

That's a lot of circular logic right there. Maybe we will be able to understand consciousness one day. What makes you so sure we won't. And if we do the whole argument is shot.

Quote:
Original post by ArchangelMorphAnyone with half a brain would realise that 99% of the achievements of mankind fulfill only one of a few specific purposes:

- The self-edification of a nation or mankind as a whole (e.g. sending a man to the moon.. it served no other purpose but for mankind to be able to say "oh look what I can do!"..)

- The improvement of quality of living for mankind as a whole (e.g. creating tech to allow long distance travel/communication or to generally do labourous tasks for us or do them quicker..)

- The self-gratification of an individual or for mankind as a whole (e.g. creating something for the purpose of entertainment, something that boosts ones ego or gives sexual/general fulfillment..)

So unless the creation of a super intelligent AI that could reason for itself would fulfill one of these desires then it would never be created.

I guess I only have 0.4999999... of a brain because I hadn't realised that. I don't think I agree with it either (although I admit I haven't given it too much thought). But even assuming that is true:

"I made a robot that thinks and feels! oh look what I can do!"

Works for me. The fact that we're curious would be reason enough for me to justify creating a sentient machine.

Personally, it is my opinion that we really aren't any different from machines (so I guess that makes me a transhumanist too). It's just an opinion, no facts to back it up. I haven't seen any facts to refute it either. And if this is really the case, then there's a chance one day that we will create true machine intelligence, and the consequences are going to be huge.

shmoove
Ajare
Ajare
Arguing whether machines can think or not is pointless. It's just a word. I'm more interested in the practical side of things. We haven't got the faintest idea about how the brain works, and it's not obvious to me that we ever will. Here's a philosophical question. Are we intelligent enough to understand our brains? After all, the more intelligent we are, the more complex are brains are....
shmoove
shmoove
Quote:
Original post by Ajare
Are we intelligent enough to understand our brains? After all, the more intelligent we are, the more complex are brains are....

Man, talk about a Catch 22.

shmoove
The Alchemist
The Alchemist
why boither making distiction between brain and computer? in our pespective the only thing realy thinking are yourselves anyway
"Everything works out in the end, if it doesn't then it is not the end"
civguy
civguy
Quote:
Original post by Ajare
Arguing whether machines can think or not is pointless. It's just a word.
...
Are we intelligent enough to understand our brains?
Arguing whether we are intelligent enough or not is pointless. Intelligence is just a word.
intrest86
intrest86
Ok, to start, I have an instinctual dislike for LaMothe. Back when I was starting I picked up one of his books and it just completely rubbed me the wrong way, as if he was constantly writing in a condescending tone. It actually made me feel physically sick. Thats just my personal opinion though.

As far as what he said, especially about the brain, he isn't really qualified. The quote about being able to give up 90% of our brain is completely wrong (Schiavo anyone?). We only use a small ammount of our brain AT A TIME. The different parts of the brain do some specialization, so it only makes sense that we only use the parts that are needed. It would be like claiming that since my computer doesn't use its wireless card often my computer could still attach to a WiFi network without it.

If we can replace neurons and also create sentient machines, what would keep us from upgrading ourselves? I worry what would happen if we DID start enhancing our bodies, but it is certainly possible.

As far as people not having jobs, he doesn't know what he is talking about. With the current market, a lot of job scarcity is in geographical locations, not spread out everywhere. If you happen to be in a bad place for jobs, all you can do is keep trying or move. That quote comes off as being severly elitist.
Turring Machines are better than C++ any day ^_~
mumpo
mumpo
Quote:

We have the technology to exactly copy a neuron

That's not true. We definitely do not have the technology yet to "exactly copy" any cell; no one has ever created a cell from scratch because there are still far too many unknowns about cellular biology. We don't fully understand the thinking function of neurons either. In fact, there is evidence that the thinking functions of the brain do not all come only from the action of neurons. Neuroglia are specialized cells that are believed to support and care for neurons, but there is now evidence that some of them may also play some role in thinking or memory.
Quote:
Original post by ArchangelMorph
- The self-edification of a nation or mankind as a whole (e.g. sending a man to the moon.. it served no other purpose but for mankind to be able to say "oh look what I can do!"..)

- The improvement of quality of living for mankind as a whole (e.g. creating tech to allow long distance travel/communication or to generally do labourous tasks for us or do them quicker..)

- The self-gratification of an individual or for mankind as a whole (e.g. creating something for the purpose of entertainment, something that boosts ones ego or gives sexual/general fulfillment..)

So unless the creation of a super intelligent AI that could reason for itself would fulfill one of these desires then it would never be created.. And since creating such a thing to fulfill these desires of man would be impossible since a computer that thinks and reasons for itself would no longer be controllable as it ("made in our own image" as LaMothe suggested..) would reason only to fulfill these desires for itself and thus function independently of its creators purpose for its "life"..

Just to clarify on the topic of humans creating an advanced robot AI that would surpass us.. I'm not specifically saying that its not possible.. I'm just stating my reasoning for why I believe its not probable.. Thats why I doubt it will ever happen..

The three reasons you presented are fairly comprehensive, but you are wrong about creating a robot AI not satisfying any of them. People have written and talked and wondered so much about advanced AIs that creating one would most certainly fall under the category of "oh look what I can do!"
BobMcGee
BobMcGee
Quote:

I don't agree with him, I'm a beliver in this case and belives man's got a soul and not just a huge bunch of neurons.

Religious/spiritual beliefs aside, our brains have a neural network and we can study how they work. Whether we do or don't have a soul, the neurons are still there.


Quote:

The quote about being able to give up 90% of our brain is completely wrong (Schiavo anyone?). We only use a small ammount of our brain AT A TIME

Agreed.


Quote:

How are we any different from a very advanced robot? How are we NOT robots? What makes us so certain we are living? If robots lived their own lives for millions of years, wouldn't they be convinced that they are what life really is? If we made a completely organic robot, is he a living being? If not, why not? How can we be so sure that when we meet another life form that we are not just non-living life forms to them (like if we met a race of robots)? Maybe real living creations are something completely different that we have never even thought of, that make it painfully obvious that we have no idea what real 'life' is.

Kind of makes you think what the definition of 'conscious' really is.

Quote:

We know exactly how a robot works, because we made it. We know close to nothing about the human mind. We just know some things about how memories are stored, the structure of it(neurons,etc...) and that's that. We don't know its essence, what makes our mind "tick". What's going on inside the neurons. Is it just chemistry? Or is it quantum physics(that is, things that happen in microscale determine our actions)? If it's the latter, then there is a huge fundamental difference from any machine that has ever been built.

What we don't understand about the human mind is the structure aspect of it. We understand how neurons transmit signals, but it's the pattern of these signals, and neural network connections which we don't understand. I believe that things just plain 'happen' when an electrical potential is applied to it, i.e, like an electrical motor connected to a circuit (5V = the motor is turning, else it isn't), and the real mystery is energy and its origins (why are protons and electrons attracted to each other in an electrical field?) I believe our brains are nothing more than some sort of electrical circuit which have places in which potential could be applied. I believe it's entirely possible for evolution to have trained this neural network over billions of years, and I think humans could set up some sort of computer simulation using the fastest computers which could simulate evolution and train the neural networks of a virtual person, and I think that process would take less than 1,000 years.

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