Alice in Wonderland ? Super Mario Brothers?

All the characters in the mario brothers game,
Dual protagonists who are plumbers and male.
Different plot


In fact the only thing similar is the shape changing, and in mario bros its with a mushroom and you only become big, and in alice it's a potion.

I think you're trying to make a connection that just isn't there.

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Original post by Vanke All the characters in the mario brothers game, Dual protagonists who are plumbers and male. Different plot In fact the only thing similar is the shape changing, and in mario bros its with a mushroom and you only become big, and in alice it's a potion. I think you're trying to make a connection that just isn't there.

Indeed, pick any piece of literature and you'll probably be able to make an equally detailed 'connection' between them.

Mario Bros. is actually a fairly standard 'rescue the princess' plot if you hadn't noticed btw, used in many games, novels and fairy-tales.

Actually I think that it is more a question of recurring gameplay mechanics, character motivation and goals, etc.

Ie. Mario Bros is based around a simple set of actions that you use in fairly repetitive scenarios (although very well produced).

Alice in Wonderland is more about unique situations, ie. it is more like a graphical adventure game in that it doesn't keep repeating the same elements over and over and over again. Which isn't to say that the reuse of standard elements in Mario is bad, it is actually fun to keep jumping between platforms as long as there is variety in positioning and type of platforms.

Mario brothers emphasises trying and trying again if you fail at a task,

The goal of each level in Mario is to reach the end of it, they are linear.
Alice's goal is to wonder about and get home, she just has to react to things and solve problems to do so.

Imagine if Mario Brothers replaced the flagpole with the White Rabbit from Alice.... ? Would you still say it is a game about rescuing a princess?

Thoughts on this?

The biggest single difference?
Alice has a plot
Mario doesn't.

I know, Mario is trying to rescue the princess, but that's just to give a context, it doesn't actually influence or drive the game.

The point is, You could strip everything away from Mario, leaving just a black and white stick figure, and it would still be the same game. The graphics, the sound, the story, the characters, they are all superficial, meant to enhance the game, not intergral to it. This includes any of the similarities to Alice. They just don't matter.

You try to strip anything away from Alice, and it collapses on itself, it no longer works.

I can imagine a game based on the setting of the Alice novels that ....

would be a sort of adventure / platform game with Alice solving different puzzles to progress through the gameworld.


Thing is that this would only be true to part of the idea behind the novels.

Alice didn't as far as I know have an obvious goal to follow, even though she thought finding the white rabbit would help her get back home. So obviously if a game were based on this ie. you make it so that she tries to follow the rabbit around but finds that there are many obstacles to her way.

Many games (excluding Sims etc) are based on overcoming obstacles to
progress to achieve a specific goal, and we enjoy facing variations on the basic challenges many times over. But if a book were to keep repeating itself in this way it would probably become dull, ie. a warrior jumps out of the darkness at Tharg the barbarian, Tharg whacks it with his blade and the warrior is split in two ! Yuk. Adventure novels aren't about repeating the same thing over and over again with different variations, rather they are often about unique and meaningful opponents and challenges. and the motivations and internal reasons that contribute to the characters wanting to carry on etc. take the battle with the giant spider in The Lord of the Rings for example...

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Original post by Ketchaval I can imagine a game based on the setting of the Alice novels that ....

It's been done
A very cool game actually, though a little dark. Definately worth a look if you come across it.

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Original post by methinks A very cool game actually, though a little dark. Definately worth a look if you come across it.

Well, I haven't played it (been thinking about buying it though), but that sounds like a generic platform / shooter game. Which isn't what I have in mind at all, what I'm suggesting would be more like Super Mario Brothers meets Super Metroid + the Half-Life 2 gravity gun physics based gameplay. (But in 3d)Ie. Using objects in the levels to overcome obstacles. Ie. Using a giant mushroom as a bridge to another area. Shrinking down to get past something, or solve a puzzle that would allow you to get through.

Ie. A thoughtful game.

It is.
There is an element of action, but also quite a bit of puzzle work.
For example: there is one level (The chess level) where you have to get from one side of the level to the other. The floor is in the form of a chess board. As you move, you take the characteristics of certain chess peices, so you have to figure out how to get across the board using just their moves.
There is also a fair bit of growth and shrinkage, though a lot of it is scripted.

Just give it a shot

i second the recommendation of american mcgee's alice, although i found the combat cumbersome sometimes.

but maybe i'll play it again anyway (right now).

http://www.gradesaver.com/ClassicNotes/Titles/wonderland/about.html

http://www.gradesaver.com/ClassicNotes/Titles/wonderland/themes.html

As well as being an entertaining story, the events in Alice ..... serve to illustrate themes.

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Growth into Adulthood: This theme is central to both books. Alice's adventures parallel the journey from childhood to adulthood. She comes into numerous new situations in which adaptability is absolutely necessary for success. She shows marked progress throughout the course of the book; in the beginning, she can barely maintain enough composure to keep herself from crying. By the end of the novel, she is self-possessed and able to hold her own against the most baffling Wonderland logic.

Whereas Mario has no real progression in the character of Mario, Mario is just a guy who runs, jumps and solves some puzzles in order to rescue the princess. Ie. He doesn't ever react to the things he encounters, and doesn't

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from the analysis of themes linked to above The key, once again, is adaptability. Alice's size changes also bring about a change in perspective, and she sees the world from a very different view. In the last trial scene, her growth into a giant reflects her interior growth. She becomes a much stronger, self-possessed person, able to speak out against the nonsensical proceedings of the trial.

Likewise, the change in size between the two Mario's doesn't serve to bring about (or illustrate to the player) a change of perspective. When Mario is small, he is still quite powerful. Even in Mario 3 where one of the worlds is really big it doesn't (Seem to) serve to illustrate a point.

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Original post by Ketchaval ...

Yes, well done, there aren't any connections between the two unless you try to draw obscure links.

Would a game be improved if it was designed to illustrate such themes?

Kazgoroth, I'm trying to see the differences between the implementation of the concept of Mario and Alice (the book). I can see not that much difference between the two worlds. The sidescrolling Mario engine would probably make a decent stab at an Alice in Wonderland platform game. What I'm trying to see is the difference between the strengths of the two media, and whether there are things that are well implemented in the book that could add to a game.

[Edited by - Ketchaval on May 12, 2005 3:55:10 AM]

As I recall correctly, Super Mario Brothers wasn't a story written by a latent pedophile, dedicated to underage daughter of his best friend.

Also, Lewis Carrol wrote Alice In Wonderland as an exaggerated version of real life events. Its never been confirmed if Miyamoto did shrooms or not.