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Better Thieves

Started by JSwing 18 replies 1.7k views
Original Post
JSwing
JSwing
The castrated thief I know I've ranted on this before, here and in some news groups, but things haven't changed (with the noted exception of Thief). The thief class, for being one of the generic 4 classes in a fantasy RPG, has been gutted like a fish. If you plan on employing a thief style character class or profession, or even a collection of 'thief' skills, please do something about this. What does the thief class do? 1) They pickpocket or steal from friendly NPCs. First, the pickpocket skiil ought to be atuomatically successful against all but the most important NPCs. Otherwise it's not worth the effort and risk for the few measly gold you acquire. And what happens if they get caught? Every NPC in town stands around screeching and pointing like invasion of the body snatchers. Guards show up by the truckload and attempt to kill rather than apprehend. Pcikpocketing friendly NPCs ought to be renamed 'suicide'. 2) They fight better than mages. Big deal. My pet mouse fights better than mages. Theives get relatively crummy armor and weapons, mediocre combat skills, and mediocre at best hitpoints. And backstabbing? A poor attempt to correct a fundamental flaw of the D+D game system. If I want a warrior, I'll use a warrior. 3) They can steal in combat instead of killing. Useless. If you kill them you get their stuff anyway. Send the warrior in instead. 4) Stealth. They can move around without being noticed. Stealth generally translates to 1 free action before the enemy notices you and starts pounding your head in. If the player is given a party to run, this has very limited use, since 20 ft away the warrior is clanking along in his plate mail. If you employ a murder based experience system, don't bother with this one. Even in the quest based RPGs, most NPCs will stand around and gladly let you loot their house, stealth or not. This is not well used in most CRPGs. 5) They pick locks. Oh joy. I've got a level 6 locksmith in my party. This is usually the one skill that thieves are needed for, even though the game designers often thwart even this skill by making doors that cannot be picked open. So given that this is the most important part of a thief's career, how do the game mechanics support this? After all, a warrior has to spend a lot of time choosing and acquiring the best equipment for killing, a mage gets to pick and choose which spells to learn and has to carefully balance mana resources at all times. So what does the thief get? Usually a single die roll. Pass, fail, set off trap. That's it. Rather anti-climactic I think. 6) Other skills that aren't really stealthy or thief-like. These get included to make character types that are thief-ish, while avoiding the flaws that prevent thieves from being useful. This is not to say that a thief can't have other skills, but when the focus shifts away from basic stealing, you don't really have a thief anymore. Archery for the robin hood types, martial arts for the ninjas, musical 'spells' to make a bard, bartering for the merchant class. 7) Other skills that have been linked to thieves or stealthy classes but never get used in CRPGs. Climbing walls. Detecting, recognizing, and disarming traps and alarms that are not connected to chests. Concealing items on your person. Knowledge about the black market and having contacts therein. Con artistry. Disguise. Cheating at games of skill and gambling. Clipping and shaving coins. Item appraisal. So what can we do? Well, you could avoid calling any category of class or skills 'thief' and stick with a variant (Archer, Bard, Ninja, whatnot) but this avoids rather than solves the problem. Otherwise, we need to make the thief a valuable character type. Thieves should attract gold like a warrior attracts bloodstains. Assume that a basic pickpocket skill is successful 100% of the time on all insignificant NPCs, and that the character always lifts a few gold coins when talking with them. Just as a high level warrior can walk through a horde of goblins and come out healthy, a high level thief should be able to walk across a marketplace and come out with bulging pockets. Give them a bonus on the gold they find as they shave the coins. Move identification of items away from the mages and into the thief realm. Ok, the mage might get to retain some of the skill, but any thief worth their salt will have learned some quick ways (read: cheap magic) to ID the loot they are trying to fence. Besides, mages already have a strong point, the fireball (or it's equivalent). Provide a black market that has items and information from dubious sources at higher prices. This is good for things like rare or unusual magic reagents. Make picking locks a rudimentary puzzle for the player. Have the character actually learn how different traps and locks are designed, building up a repetoire of knowledge that the player has available when they work the puzzle. Once the trap type has been solved a few times, allow the player to automatically bypass the system. Maybe have different types of esoteric lockpicks for different kinds of locks. Anything to make this a more interesting system instead of a single die roll. Improve high level stealth to invisibility. Is this realistic? Of course not! But if warriors get to be powerful enough to slay dragons, the least we can do is make the thief invisible. Create some areas where it is socially inappropriate to go fully armored. Like on a diplomatic mission. Or a convent. Or a kindergarten. The thief then becomes more useful. Find a use for stashing things on people, the reverse of pickpocketing. I'm thinking of cursed items, mostly. I fondly remember a thief from a pencil and paper RPG that was always spiking drinks, planting evidence, dropping a few choice distractions into the pockets of others. Of course this is only useful if you have better NPCs, so it may not be worth pursuing. Edited by - JSwing on 11/16/00 11:45:45 PM
laeuchli
laeuchli
I''m in agreement. Thieves don''t have enough going for them. However, I think I have a better idea then %100 pickrate. How about give the NPC more money(no hauls of 3 gold coins, maybe something like 100), and then have the amount you can find on NPCs go up as your thief levels up. Also, I think maybe not all the towns people should hate you after you get caught. You should get a night in the town jail and a fine, but not excuted on the spot. What do you think?
JSwing
JSwing
Well in response to AP, I don''t mean to suggest that thieves would get some sort of magical intuition. Instead they would develop some practical solutions via minor magic.
If I was writing it as a story, it woudl be:
The thief finds the diamond sphere, takes out a rune scratched on a well used peice of cloth, puts the cloth over the sphere, sprinkles a little salt on the cloth and says a few words. The salt burns blue -> Orb of Seeing.
The thief doesn''t need to know how the rune works, he just has the practical resources available.

I could see keeping some ID skills with the mage class, especially for areas that they are experts in, but for game balance let''s give quick ID skill to the thieves. Make the mages go study in a library to figure it out.

L.,
I agree that you should be able to steal more as you level up. However, in most games, you can''t successfully steal from even inconsequential rubes until you have levelled up quite a bit. and they rarely provide you with the opportunity to escape capture by darting through a crowd. Even with only capture and a fine, the risk still isn''t worth the reward at lower skill levels.

But the whole point of being a thief, IMO, is to acquire goods through stealth and cleverness. If you can''t do that with some reasonable chance of success even at the low levels then you''re not much of a thief, you''re a starving beggar.

I suppose it would make sense to rank the NPCs in terms of your ability to steal. Peasants and rubes get a few coins and a 95-100% chance of success. More important NPCs get both a larger wallet and a lower chance of success, balanced by the increasing skill of the thief.
Delisk
Delisk
I agree!

Thives a far from being good in these games.

I the fact of having a bunch of gard pop up when you fails suck... it is far from being realistic!

An execution for these type of crime is ilogical....and you never have a trial! These gard are suposed to be good.

And for picklock...tell me why the warrior could not bash the door...the chest is lock, just use you axe to bust the lock and the job is done

An stelth suck....Turning invisble is plain stupid this skill should allow the tief to walk in the shodow or behind goard while not making noise or going from one safe spot to another! (Thief was a good game for this )

Delisk
kseh
kseh
I think that when it comes to certain magic items, a thief should have at least some clue. At the very least for famous objects like the Mythical Thingamajig of Whowasthatguy.

When it comes to automatic picking success, what might be a good idea would be to have a high success rate unless the victim is specificly being wery of pickpockets.

I think the various thieving type skills in Fallout were done quite well. At least you were given the option to prime a grenade then planet it on someone/something then bugger off. You had to build up to it though which took some time.

An archiologist might make for a good thief variant. (I''m thinking like an Indiana Jones archtype.)
Wavinator
Wavinator
Totally agree JSwing!

My thoughts on thievery draw from more modern or futuristic senarios, so all the stealth stuff you see in movies like Entrapment and Mission Impossible become fodder for theif skills.

My take on theives is that they their skillset should be "Stealth +" Almost every practical skill available should have some stealth modifier. So running, picking up or placing items, identifying things or observing people, etc., etc. could be done stealthily by the thief. This makes the theif a lot more flexible (and dangerous )

Of course, the major problem is that the theif, like the assassin (but less so) is pretty much a solo or anti-social character. Unless you have a group of theives, whatever the theif is doing (climbing walls for recon, or sneaking into the back office) they''re doing by themselves. Also, much of what they do is for their own aggrandizement. This is a big problem in MMORPGs, which is why I think Ultima Online invented teleporting guards and insta-death (a stupid hack, IMO).

I''m not sure how to make the theif more of a social character, but your suggestions beef him up for solo play for sure.


PS: Minor whine, but w/o spacing last chunk of your post was pretty hard to read...

--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...
--------------------Just waiting for the mothership...
dwarfsoft
dwarfsoft
First off, I am in full agreement with the theif class. My game doesn''t have specific classes (well, I am deciding if skill web or classes would serve better) but I have a few thief skills that I think are useful.

There is a blend-in skill which allows a chance for the theif to blend into the crowd and disappear (to stop the guards finding you). For stealth, it is more to do with being still than invisible. When you are not moving, your stealth skill makes you more invisible to others, but if you move, you can be seen a little easier (a bit of transparency).

Anyway, also some skills for the theif class include leap, which is used to reach the rooftops of the buildings. This allows for more effective getaways. The guards will give up pursuit after a while as well, if they can''t find you.

Other skills are ''distraction'' which basically works like throwing a small pebble. It makes a noise somewhere nearby, that alerts others to your presumed presence, but you can throw this pebble in the direction you want, and basically they could run right past you (stealth/blending skill) from there you can leap onto the roof followed by a feather fall.

Feather fall is basically a skill that allows the theif to reduce their noise level when jumping and landing. This is useful as it allows a theif to be undetected when they jump off buildings and up buildings.

Anyway, this topic really needed to be raised
*dwarfsoft takes out a pen and a notepad and starts making notes for the doc*

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - Site:"The Philosophers'' Stone of Programming Alchemy" - IOL
The future of RPGs - Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche
          
MadKeithV
MadKeithV
Being devils advocate:
I am in complete disagreement with all the statements made.

I have seen plenty of games where thieves can pick pockets, appraise gems and climb walls. Skills can be applied.

The issue is not that thieves are underpowered, or even that their niche has been overlooked. The issue is the same for every character class, you just happen to like playing thieves more.

In any CRPG you''ll hear warriors complain they can''t do any more than chop down goblin like a lumberjack chops down trees.
You''ll hear mages complain that they are only good for casting fireballs.
You''ll hear clerics complain that they are just a walking first aid kit or field hospital.
You''ll hear druids complain that the game doesn''t give them enough opportunity to solve problems with no violence.
You''ll hear bards complain that NPCs do not appreciate their poetry...

Anyway, you get my point.
CRPGs just do not provide a framework detailed enough for you to be able to get into ANY character, regardless of the class you happen to be playing. This problem is not specific to thieves.


People might not remember what you said, or what you did, but they will always remember how you made them feel.
It's only funny 'till someone gets hurt.And then it's just hilarious.Unless it's you.
MadKeithV
MadKeithV
" ( Message posted to keep thread alive, damn my signature error! )


Edited by - MadKeithV on November 17, 2000 3:54:58 AM
It's only funny 'till someone gets hurt.And then it's just hilarious.Unless it's you.
Sandman
Sandman
I remember reading a letter to dragon magazine, in which some guy was complaining that the theif class was too weak. He also proposed a whole load of "improvements". What he was actually doing (IMHO) was trying to get the class to cover his own incompetence at playing the class.

The Theif class is my favourite class, and I have never had any problems with them being too weak. One of my theif characters would regularly slay more opponents than all of the rest of the party put together, and usually without even drawing a weapon.

A thief character should be resourceful. If you just want to kill things, play a warrior.


Nazrix
Nazrix
Great ideas, dwarf.

MKV, that is a good point. I think there''s a bigger problem that must be overcome in RPG[ish] games: they need characters to have involvent w/ the game and plot then we can worry about how effect classes are individually.


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JSwing
JSwing
MadKeithV: You''re right. The real problem is that the games do not (or perhaps can not) provide a kind of environment and gameplay where skills other than direct combat are useful.

My suggestions were an attempt to balance out the character class within the given game systems (the typical Baldur''s gate style).
Nazrix
Nazrix
quote:

MadKeithV: You're right. The real problem is that the games do not (or perhaps can not) provide a kind of environment and gameplay where skills other than direct combat are useful.




covers his ears

Please do not say cannot. If we cannot provide an environment where skills other than direct combat are useful then I'm quitting game development right now


quote:

My suggestions were an attempt to balance out the character class within the given game systems (the typical Baldur's gate style).




JSwing, yes that's a noble cause



"All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be --Pink Floyd
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.

Click here to see my current project.


Edited by - Nazrix on November 17, 2000 10:49:48 AM
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself. "Just don't look at the hole." -- Unspoken_Magi
ape
ape
I think it was "Hillsfar", a AD&D game by SSI in the mid 80''s where a thief had to buy a set of lock picks, which were like small keys with 1 "tooth" a piece. So to pick a lock, you could see the cross section of the lock, i.e. what teeth/lock picks were needed. Then you had a limited time to use the right lock picks.. This was rather challenging I thought.

This certianly required more interaction than simply "Pick a lock successfully 60% of the time." And the players familiarity with his set of lock picks, and tooth patterns in general was rewarded
runemaster
runemaster
Yep, that was Hillsfar.I thought the system was great, and rather easy to program.Unforunately the rest of the game sucked .
In the Quest for Glory series thieves were nicely made.There were seperate solutions to every riddle for each class, so playing a thief was totally different from playing a warrior or mage.There was a thieves'' guild in most towns, which you had to find first.Especially in QFG5 (best game ever made) thieves were immense fun.

Runemaster now working on Acronia : Secrets of Magic
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C-Junkie
C-Junkie
I think, that you think thieves are underpowered or underskilled, or poorly implemented (whatever it is you''re trying to prove) because you like that class. And I agree with you, not because i like the theif. heck, I like all classes. (that''s why i invented....er...refined the skill web, dwarfsoft) I think theives and assasins should be in the same group. (I don''t say class because I''m a firm disbeiever in classes, what if I wannabe a theif/assasin/monk(or whatever your martial arts dude is)/Psionicist/minor magician?) In my opinion, There should be many skills available, and be developed more deeply for ALL classes. And, people! think about some things for a second: why can a Warrior kill a dragon? because he can withstand a dragon''s breath??? Gimmee a break. Maybe he could survive, but he''d be burned and *crippled*. (another thing i don''t see much)

I''m sortof ranting here...But thieves would be improved greatly if the sytem improved greatly. Teleporting Guards...sheesh. Put some courts in there people. and how do you do that? well, first you need to find a way to tie up the guy. (never seen a rope in an CRPG...u?) another thing i think is weird, the theives guild is NOT an accepted part of society. "First rule of theives guild is: Do not talk about Theives guild."
dwarfsoft
dwarfsoft
About ID.. .I think that thieves should be able to ID certain NORMAL items, but wizards can ID the MAGIC aspect of them. That means that you would still require both.

Yeah C-Junkie, I realised that

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - Site:"The Philosophers'' Stone of Programming Alchemy" - IOL
The future of RPGs - Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche
          

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