I think you''ve got to be quite careful when discussing what non-linear is. It''s easy to say what linear is an then jump to the conclusion that non-linear is everything else. I think this would be grossly incorrect. This i believe is becuase there could be something between linear and non-linear that we havn''t quite defined yet. I tend to think that linear maybe a little to a generalization a word in itself.

You look at it this way, when you pull the plug out of the kitchen sink the water travels in a linear but dynamic fashion. A leaf falling out of a tree travels in a linear direction but will alway land somewhere different.

What you always need to do i believe when using the word linear is to attach as many explainatory points about what you are talking about. Remember that a string can be considered linear even though it''s bent or curved, thats another interesting point. To me linear is a word that must be used with inclusion to an event occuring within a clearly defined field.

It''s also important to note that when we use the word linear we are applying it to the world of information where as typically is been used in the physical word.

Linear can also mean deviation because a creek can curve and bend -can''t remember the word- which is deviation but still remain linear (point to point).

One more time for the dumbies
ar+gu+ment n. A discussion in which reasons are put forward in support of and against a proposition, proposal, or case; debate.

::Thank goodness no one has yet decided to argue which is better::
I agree with AP there is a difference between linear plot and linear gameplay. First of all no game can be completely linear otherwise it would not be a game it would be (everyone together now) a book. Every game allows a player to interact with something. The only question is, what is the player allowed to affect? By the way, linear/nonlinear is a false dichotomy. There are no linear games, there are no nonlinear games. There are only games which are more/less linear than other games. The linear question depends on which things follow eachother, as determined by the game rules, and is basically a measure of how much choice the player is given. In tetris, the player has very few choices, move or rotate a block, and the game dictates what will happen next, the block will fall. A fairly linear concept. In FFVII, the game still dictates what you will do in what order, at least for important events, but you are given more choice what to do in between. So FFVII is less linear than tetris. If any game were totally nonlinear, it would not be a game it would be a toy. (To misquote Will Wright)

Now you may feel free to disagree with me.

Several billion trillion tons of superhot exploding hydrogen nuclei rose slowly above the horizon and managed to look small, cold and slightly damp.-The Hitchhiker''s Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams

Oh No!

Yet another discussion that takes a term and tries to but a clear definition on it.

Natural language is used to convey meaning but it is very hard to agree on the exact semantics of each word. What is "love"? What is "a car"? (Is it something with four wheels that can move by it self? What is it looses its wheels, is it then still a car?) "What is a window?"

We all have different ideas about what linear and non-linear is and it is pointless to argue about which one of our ideas that is the correct. They are all correct in each their own way in our heads.

As with all other natural language terms, for which there is no well defined meaning, we should define our meaning when using it. If we neglect that we might get into arguments with people using the word in another way. Or even better we should avoid using it and discuss it using other more primitive terms.

The way to avoid all these problems is for somebody to sit down and make a definition and maybe also a definition for several related terms (there is a (abandoned?) project at gamedev trying to define such terms to ease communication). It is then pointless to argue against the definition, because the idea in out heads differ (as it probably will). People could then refer to "linear according to ''s definition". This is how they discuss things in philosophy where there also is a lot of problems concerning the use of words.

Ad no I will not give my definition of (non)linear here because it serves no purpose.

Jacob Marner

Just an idea...

What if somebody here collected all our definitions of (non)linear and compiled them in to a list of those different "types" there is.

We could then do a poll to see which on should be the GDForum official definition and the we could generally stick to that and if people wanted to use other variations they could refer to the list and a number.

Jacob Marner

I think Paul has it right on the money. It isn''t about what is non-linear, nescesarilly, but how non-linear it is. Some different terms come to mind when pondering types of non-linearity (not all of these are type of non-linearity):

Choatic (mathematical) - a small variance in initital conditions or results lend to large differences in the end. Predictions can be made, but only in terms of ranges of possible outcomes. An excelllent example is meteorology.

Chaotic (linguistic) - completely confused or disordered. [Random House Webster''s College Dictionary, 2nd ed.]

Branching - having divergent paths, not nescesarilly of equal length (in time or distance.) Sometimes convergence between different paths occur (I don''t know if there is a specific term for this.)

Some other thoughts:

There are books that aren''t linear. Anyone remember the ''choose your own adventure'' craze?

Quake 2 is bizzare in that to go foward at times, you had to go backwards in the levels. Sometimes a new section would be revealed, other times a release mechanism that didn''t funtion before funtions now, allowing you to procede further ahead. Both are instances of retracing, but the latter is quite linear in terms of level layout.

quote: Original post by felonius

Just an idea...

What if somebody here collected all our definitions of (non)linear and compiled them in to a list of those different "types" there is.

We could then do a poll to see which on should be the GDForum official definition and the we could generally stick to that and if people wanted to use other variations they could refer to the list and a number.

Jacob Marner

Just like a real dictionary. If you look up the word ''it'' you''ll find about 15 definitions (depending on which dictionary you use.) Everyone has there own idea for a definition because there are so many definitions. But just because someone states a meaning to a word, it doesn''t mean they are even remotely correct. For instance, you don''t wan''t to be using molasses because someone mis-defined dark corn syrup. (Trust me, pecan pies don''t taste very good at all with molasses.)

quote: Original post by SonicSilcion
But just because someone states a meaning to a word, it doesn''t mean they are even remotely correct.

A dictionary is nothing but a bunch of people that has decided what each word means and then written it down. That doesn''t make it "correct". However it gives a common reference so everybody use each word in the same way - thereby improving communication. That makes dictionaries useful.

Anybody can make a dictionary. However, it is only useful if there are multiple people using it.

Some of you have probably tried looking up a word and not agreed with the definition in the dictionary. This is because your own definition is different, i.e. your idiolect (personal version of the language) differs. But that doesn''t make your definition "wrong", it is just a definition that differs from what some people has agreed upon to be the most common meaning. Just like the double negative in black american language isn''t wrong. It is just another dialect, that is fully consistent and in use.

If I wanted to I could use the term "xyxel" for the thing with two wheels other people usually call bikes. This is not wrong. This is jsut my personal language. However, it is a problem if I talk to other people that don''t know that term, because we speak different languages.

Grammar is divided into two schools:
Prescriptive linguistics: Those that write rules and words down and dictate these as "correct".
Descriptive linguistics: Those that observe what people are doing and then write that down.
Prescriptive grammar is good when you need to learn a foreign language but all modern linguistics for native speakers are descriptive. This means that any native speaker by definition is speaking the national language "correctly", they just usually have some minor variations.

When writing and speaking there can be, though, reasons for conforming to agreed upon standards to make things more smooth. So that is why we are taught to speak and write in certain ways that we are told is "correct".

Oh, and by the way. I have a completed minor linguistics.

Jacob Marner

Thanx everyone for some quite interesting feedback. I think that the definition of non-linearity would be for a time very obscure. I finally ended up using a definition, -in the problem of able to find/agree on a better, found in Edge (www.edge-online.com):

"One of gaming's holy grails is to take gamers off the linear path that they're used to and instead let them choose how to finish a 'non-linear' story, where they decide how the plot develops by their actions. Current non-linear games tend to be sprawling and dull, due to the difficulties of creating excitement and tension in a non-linear narrative."

But does it really answer what non-linearity is? Half way. They say that non-linearity is something that:
'let them choose how to finish a 'non-linear' story, where they decide how the plot develops by their actions.' But those games are still to be made, aren't they?!( maybe UO )
And then:
'Current non-linear games...', and suddenly they say they exist?

Cheers to all of you anyway.

Ben



Edited by - gocontact on November 25, 2000 11:59:41 PM

Linear is conformity in narrative structure to a given text. This means that events happen to occur similar or the same to what they were prescribed or expected to. Non-linear is when the events appear to break the convention and stray or fork out from this conformity.

Makes one wonder why they don''t just call it a "branching storyline" or an "interactive plot." I guess non-linear is just too big a buzzword for marketing not to use. (This from the same type of people who gave us "disposable camera.") *shrug*