n00b bashing

Personally, I feel that a certain amount of "IBTL"-style ribbing (mmm, BBQ ribs... DAMN YOU FRUNY) is to be expected and tolerated. It's simply the natural response of a well-established community to an intrusion, and I don't think it's mean-spirited; it isn't even directed at the OP. If we came down like a ton of bricks every time someone toed that line, we'd do nothing except piss everyone off.

I think the appropriate place to draw the line is when the posts do become directed at the OP, or openly mocking. For instance, this is inappropriate. Likewise, this is impolite (though I can't help agreeing with the sentiment; KaA had a whole page of posts to get the point).

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Original post by Sneftel I think the appropriate place to draw the line is when the posts do become directed at the OP, or openly mocking. For instance, this is inappropriate. Likewise, this is impolite (though I can't help agreeing with the sentiment; KaA had a whole page of posts to get the point).

I concur. The IBTL stuff is pretty funny still, but I think personal attacks should not be tolerated, regardless of whether or not the victim is a nooblar.

We shouldn't suddenly become the "nice police" -- videogames are fucking hard to write and the mainstream games media does not convey that concept at all. Sometimes this kind of "tough love" approach is the only way to distribute clue.

I've always been a fan of the "OK, fine, let me lay it out for you" method of noob education; by posting a long pessimistic post you can usually whack them with the cluebat a lot easier than a million Usenet-style flamewars.

A bit elitist of a view, I think, but when I was "growing up" I got the same sort of cluebat treatment (thanks Pouya, SHilbert) and I'm better for it.

I'm fine with exposing the harsh realities of life game programming to starry-eyed newbies but this IBTL/B think has worn its novelty, especially when it comes out of the blue like here. Ridiculing the poster - particularly for a post in an unrelated thread is major BAD.

Help Wanted is a difficult case. On one hand, noob bashing is particularly blatant there, discouraging newcomers. On the other hand, there are some really clueless people out there ...

As for being the "nice police", well, For Beginner is supposed to be a safe zone, isn't it?

I disagree about the IBTL stuff; sure it's funny in the right context, but when a whole thread is full of "IBTL/IBTB" it looks unprofessional to the larger audience that aren't part of the 'clique'. GDNet isn't Genmay, SA or Fark, so why should we allow for people who can't differentiate that there's a right place/right time?

I agree with the response to 'bashing'; we shouldn't wrap people up in cotton wool. Games *are* hard to make but again, we need to ensure that people know the difference between constructive criticsm, helpful advice and being an asshole.

Right now, we're seeing:

OP> Hi I want to make a MMORPG
Flamer> LOL, try tetris n00b
Troll> IBTL
OP> What? I don't understand, I want to make a game
AP> Can I be on the lighting team?
(new user rating drops to 960)
Helpful> [Some guy posting some helpful advice that gets lost in the rest of it]


What's happening here is a new user signs up with a genuine query and desire to make a game. He gets bashed by the elitists and gets upset, his further requests are met by more bashing until he gets a decent (realistic) response from a considerate poster. But by this time, he's probably discouraged and will not bother checking out the rest of the site for some 'real' help.

The forum is often the first calling point for new members, they want to feel welcomed and not bashed senseless by a vocal few. By letting a few of the trolling 'fun' comments through it lets the dam break and the flood begin. The new user doesn't understand the subculture, they don't know why people are responding in that way and become frustrated.

There's a right place and a right time for this sort of stuff (eg: some Lounge threads), but we should work to stop n00b bashing from becoming a past-time of our regular members who feel like a powertrip or don't know the meaning of 'useful input'.

Anyway, that's just my two cents

Alright, I'll be frank here, I'm tired of people bashing n00bs. They don't know any better, just like most of our so called "experts" on these forums when they first joined. Everyone (even myself...although i hate to admit it) has been in such a position, and these people aren't helping that person learn the faults in their assumptions.

First off, I tend to take a rather strict approach torwards those kinds of posts: Delete the post, and warn the user. Should they continue to post in such ways, a 1 day suspension is in order. Further abuse could be followed by a 1 month suspension, and possible ban depending on their abuse history and the class of abuse. I take the same view torwards flames and other abusive posting habits.

That's my opinion though...

I think this is one of those issues that can't be stopped. "n00b bashing" will occur no matter what, simply because those of experience (and, generally, immaturity) will get annoyed that people are acting like they first did before they had to face the harsh realizations of getting started with game development.

To be honest, we were all bashed when we were newbies back in the day (at least, I'd say most of us were, depending on when our "day" was). I'd almost be tempted to say that it's just "part of the process." As long as the newbie bashing isn't too harsh, vulgar, etc., I'd be tempted to just let it be.

I think we ought to declare open season on 'IBTL' posts, anyway. It's a meme that has been done to death.

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Original post by mittens I think this is one of those issues that can't be stopped. "n00b bashing" will occur no matter what, simply because those of experience (and, generally, immaturity) will get annoyed that people are acting like they first did before they had to face the harsh realizations of getting started with game development. To be honest, we were all bashed when we were newbies back in the day (at least, I'd say most of us were, depending on when our "day" was). I'd almost be tempted to say that it's just "part of the process." As long as the newbie bashing isn't too harsh, vulgar, etc., I'd be tempted to just let it be.

I dunno... having watched the internet over the last 8 years or so, I'd definitely say that part of the problem is that the newbies are getting dumber. For example, the number of people who will post on a forum before they've even used a search engine for their question is rising. I expect this is a side-effect of the internet becoming more widespread and cheaper/easier to use. People expect answers delivered into their hands for free and they expect those answers to be complete and easy to implement. Sadly the real world doesn't work that way.

On the other hand, the kinds of games that people aspire to make are getting more complex. Some newbies that do seek out tutorials find a large gulf between what they're being taught and what they want to make, and I wouldn't be surprised if more and more think that the tutorials on offer are not relevant to what they want to do. ("Draw a triangle and a square? Why would I want to do that? I want to animate monsters!") Gone are the days of showing people how to write a complete game in one short tutorial, unless you're using Python. ;)

6 or 7 years ago people would ask about making an FPS or RPG, and would get gently discouraged and pointed towards something simpler. Now they ask about MMORPGs, which tend to take all the hard bits from FPSs and RPGs with many new problems thrown in, and approach it with even more naiveté than their predecessors. Add to the mix the general net-wide decline in spelling, grammar, humility, and politeness. It's bound to draw ridicule.

So what's the answer? I think the IBTL posts have to go, as do any unconstructive flames, and posters of such should be formally warned. On the other hand I don't think that the totally foolish Help Wanted posts should go unquestioned. A firm but polite response - based on a stock answer if possible, to avoid personal offense - could go a long way. If we really want to help people write computer games, then recalibrating their expectations at the earliest possible stage is essential. And if we (and the more helpful members of the community in general) are seen to be doing this, the n00b-bashing posts will decrease in frequency anyway. It's all about setting the tone, I believe.

Well, when I was referring to n00b flames, I was talking about an "earlier era" (before the IBTL/B responses, which I had to look up to figure out what you guys were talking about); ie. something a year or so ago.

The only things I was talking about that I felt should stay are the constructive flames. For instance, I would approve of somebody that offered help, but also would degrade the original poster's egotism (by trailing the help with a subtle taunt, swearing at him; stuff like "I'm fucking sick of newbies," is something I'd be relatively cool with). I would even approve of a simple post with someone stating "Not this again..." or "Christ, use the search function" or something like that. I'd even be okay with what Oberon_Command said.

What I wouldn't approve of is just a complete out personal insult that borders on being crude/disgusting/etc. As long as the insults are kept witty/clean (by "clean" I don't mean language-clean, I mean clean of all-out personal attacks), I'm okay with it.

The IBTL/B responses are just useless beyond words though, those need to go.

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Original post by mittens The only things I was talking about that I felt should stay are the constructive flames. For instance, I would approve of somebody that offered help, but also would degrade the original poster's egotism (by trailing the help with a subtle taunt, swearing at him; stuff like "I'm fucking sick of newbies," is something I'd be relatively cool with). I would even approve of a simple post with someone stating "Not this again..." or "Christ, use the search function" or something like that. I'd even be okay with what Oberon_Command said. What I wouldn't approve of is just a complete out personal insult that borders on being crude/disgusting/etc. As long as the insults are kept witty/clean (by "clean" I don't mean language-clean, I mean clean of all-out personal attacks), I'm okay with it.

That's how I feel, and I'm pretty sure most people here agree.

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Original post by Washu Alright, I'll be frank here, I'm tired of people bashing n00bs. They don't know any better, just like most of our so called "experts" on these forums when they first joined.

That what bothers me, it's not n00b bashing, it's n00b's bashing n00b's.

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Original post by Shannon Barber Quote: Original post by Washu Alright, I'll be frank here, I'm tired of people bashing n00bs. They don't know any better, just like most of our so called "experts" on these forums when they first joined. That what bothers me, it's not n00b bashing, it's n00b's bashing n00b's.

That's just it, I don't distinguish between n00bs and n00bs bashing n00bs. To be frank, everyone on the boards who actually does know a smidgen are usually quite respectful and helpful.

Okeydoke. If we're going to come down harder on n00b bashing, we're going to need to tell people about it, probably via a forums-wide sticky. Washu, you seem to have a rather focused opinion on this issue... would you mind writing something up?

Sure, but you get to proof it! [grin]

No problem. My editing will be like a nightmarish avenging wind!

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Original post by Sneftel No problem. My editing will be like a nightmarish avenging wind!

Like the day after a hot curry?

Yeeees. [evil]

Rough draft:

N00b Bashing

As some of you may have noticed, we are in the middle of a rather large epidemic of n00b bashing. This has got to stop. It is perfectly normal for a person not to know all of the answers, and yes most of the time they could obtain the answers with a quick search on Google or a look at the Forum FAQ. None the less, this does not give you the right to behave in such a childish and unprofessional manner towards these new members of our community. Don't forget, you were all there at one point or another.

As such, we have decided to enact the following rule:
All posts on the technical forums are to be constructive.

Here is what constitutes a constructive post:

• On topic as it relates to the questions at hand


• Helpful in that you answer the question as accurately as you can.


• Helpful in that you ask questions that pertain to the topic or clarification of an answer directed at the topic.


• Not flamebait. A helpful answer may be helpful, but if you cannot phrase it in such a way as to not come across as flamebait, don't post at all.


• Provide factual information. If you are just going to repeat hearsay, save yourself the embarrassment of being proven wrong and just don't post.


• Don't derail. While it is generally ok to derail a topic as long as it remains mostly geared towards the original question, going from “How do I use delegates in C#” to “C++ is better than C# because I can write this kind of hacky code” is not appropriate.


• No IBTL or other stupid acronyms.


• No booleans. Yes, it might be amusing to post the MMOG comic every time you see a MMOG post, but don't do it.

That sounds good. I don't think I'd limit it to the technical forums, though... n00b bashing happens in the lounge too. Of course, we can't limit the Lounge to constructive posts.

My proposed revision:

N00b Bashing

As some of you may have noticed, we are in the middle of a rather large epidemic of n00b bashing. This has got to stop. Yes, a person often doesn't know all the answers, and yes, most of the time they could obtain the answers with a quick search on Google or a look at the Forum FAQ. Nevertheless, this does not give you the right to behave in a childish and unprofessional manner towards new members of our community. Don't forget: you were all there at one point or another. If you feel the need to rant about a member's cluelessness or arrogance, do it over PMs, chat, etc.; just not in the thread.

As such, we are enacting the following rule:
All posts on the technical forums must be constructive.

Here is what constitutes a constructive post:

• On topic as it relates to the questions at hand.


• Helpful in that you answer the question as accurately as you can.


• Helpful in that you ask questions that pertain to the topic or clarification of an answer directed at the topic.


• Not flamebait. A helpful answer may need to be controversial, but if you cannot phrase it in such a way as to not come across as flamebait, don't post at all.


• Provide factual information. If you are just going to repeat hearsay, save yourself the embarrassment of being proven wrong and just don't post.


• Don't derail. While it is generally ok to derail a topic as long as it remains mostly geared towards the original question, going from "How do I use delegates in C#" to "C++ is better than C# because I can write this kind of hacky code" is not necessarily appropriate. Don't assume you know everything about the poster's development situation, and don't expect him to scrap everything and start from scratch on your say-so.


• No IBTL or other stupid acronyms. It got old long ago.


• No booleans. Yes, it might be amusing to post the MMOG comic every time you see a MMOG post, but don't do it.

Additionally, posts in the Lounge, while they do not have to be constructive, must at the very least be respectful and cordial.