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compensation

Started by capn_midnight Aug 5, 2005 at 8:38 AM 39 replies 2.8k views
Original Post
capn_midnight
capn_midnight
For the past two months I've been working at this large engineering firm in their GIS division under the title of "intern", writing code for a GIS product they are developing. The internship was originally set for three months, after which they would "evaluate" me and conditionally offer me a permanent position. They offered the position a month early. As an "intern" I'm making $15 USD/hr, which comes out to $31,200/yr. For the permanent position, they are giving me a "significant" (their words, not mine) raise of $2/hr to $17/hr, ~35K/yr. Here's the problem. I think I'm worth way more than that. And apparently the national average thinks so, too. In 2004, nation-wide, the average starting salary for a computer science graduate in a software development position was 54K. For computer science in general, it's 52K, ranging from 40K to 70K. One of those free online payscale report sites told me the average pay for someone in my position, with my training, in my area, at a company like mine, is 65K. Now, I think I'm above average (as pretty much anyone does), but I also think I'm justified in thinking I'm above average, as I hear nothing but praise for the work I'm doing here. "We are very pleased with the work you are doing here, and are very happy that you're willing to take on pretty much anything." I've already impressed the upper management with my skills. There are a couple of people that have been here for a year or so already that are asking *me* how to do things. I got the job because I had training in the eXtreme Programming methodology of software engineering. They had hired my SE prof as a consultant to ease their transition into XP, she hand delivered my resume to them, and they hired me (ostensibly) because of my experience with XP, Unit Testing, and .NET programming, all things that they want to do more of (though I only see them really doing the .NET programming... whatever). So, I think I'm getting a raw deal here. I think maybe they are low balling me to see if I will bite, and then snicker on the way to the bank. We're at the end of the pay period (today), they are "really excited about hiring me as a permanent employee and want to get this done as quick as possible, so that you can be ready for the next pay period". I had heard rumours that this was happening about a week ago, but didn't have diffinitive word that it was happening until either Tuesday or Wednesday of this week, and didn't have the details of the compensation package until yesterday. In this entire time, I haven't had a chance to sit down with my employers and discuss their proposition as I expected they would. It's just sort of happened behind the scenes and I've been fed tidbits of information here and there. I know *what* I'm going to do, I'm going to tell them that I think their shorting me (in a diplomatic way, of course), but it seems like I'm being railroaded to get me to accept (by default, by not saying no), so they can bury the issue. And of course, my boss is out today. Any guidance on *how* to approach this?
Terlenth
Terlenth
Well they definately are low balling you. I'd have to say the only real way that you can handle this would be to tell them flat out.

Tell them that you've done some research into the pay salaries of full time software employees and that the *raise* they are proposing gives you a salary less than the industry standard. Also, if they would like to retain your services that they should at least meet the industry standard.

At least that would be the basics of it. You can sugar coat it as you see fit. But, I'd have to say that you'll have to be forceful and possibly some sort of ultimatum.

--Ter'Lenth
--Ter'Lenth
superdeveloper
superdeveloper
It does seem very low actually. What other benefits does the company offer?

Stock purchase plan?
How many weeks vacation?
Health plan?
Retirement plan?
memberships?

Ultimately, when you lay your cards down on the table, you will know just how much you really are worth to them. If they don't budge, then they rate your responsibility at that pay (which IMO is not the greatest).
capn_midnight
capn_midnight
Quote:
Original post by superdeveloper
It does seem very low actually. What other benefits does the company offer?

Stock purchase plan?
How many weeks vacation?
Health plan?
Retirement plan?
memberships?

Ultimately, when you lay your cards down on the table, you will know just how much you really are worth to them. If they don't budge, then they rate your responsibility at that pay (which IMO is not the greatest).

that's the thing, I don't know the full benefit package. I know there is a health plan, but I've heard it's "okay..." (yes, you can hear people pronounce the ellipsis). There is a 401(k) plan, but I don't know how much I'll be paying in, if and/or how much the company will match, etc. Memberships, I haven't heard anything about anything. Vacation is an accrual system that I don't recall if it's one week or two to start (though judging from everything else is only 1 week). Stock purchase, no clue.
Terlenth
Terlenth
Quote:
Original post by capn_midnight
Quote:
Original post by superdeveloper
It does seem very low actually. What other benefits does the company offer?

Stock purchase plan?
How many weeks vacation?
Health plan?
Retirement plan?
memberships?

Ultimately, when you lay your cards down on the table, you will know just how much you really are worth to them. If they don't budge, then they rate your responsibility at that pay (which IMO is not the greatest).

that's the thing, I don't know the full benefit package. I know there is a health plan, but I've heard it's "okay..." (yes, you can hear people pronounce the ellipsis). There is a 401(k) plan, but I don't know how much I'll be paying in, if and/or how much the company will match, etc. Memberships, I haven't heard anything about anything. Vacation is an accrual system that I don't recall if it's one week or two to start (though judging from everything else is only 1 week). Stock purchase, no clue.


Who would you be talking to about this? Would it be someone who could answer these questions for you? If so, don't go into the conversation with an entirely one set mind.

Ask about medical benefits, etc. If you feel that the 35K plus whatever else you can get is worth it then you might lighten up on a couple things. I'd still say that you should go for a higher salary aswell, but the ultimate call is up to you.
--Ter'Lenth
krikkit
krikkit
Ask for what you feel you are worth. Understand they are in the business of making and saving money, and if you are willing to buy into that, they will gladly pay you less.
If they won't match it, then as I see it you've got three choices.
1. Decline and quit.
2. Accept their lower wage and work extra hard, hoping to get really great raises while overperforming for underpayment.
3. Accept their lower wage and lower the quality of your work to match their wage. Still sucks but at least you arent getting laughed at to the bank for being superproductive for no money. Start reading monster.com during work hours.
superdeveloper
superdeveloper
a) You realize how little 1 week actually is. I started off with 3 weeks and I find it to be not enough.

b) an "ok" health plan means a single incident/accident will bankrupt you, or otherwise you will be let go.

c) lack of answers about the other questions makes it sound like there isn't much to offer. I work at Cognos, and they had me when they elaborated (excitedly) on all the extras employees get beyond salary (10% discount stock purchase plan, 5% salary-matching into retirement, gym, etc.. etc..)

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but on the bright side, you can do much better.
Terlenth
Terlenth
Quote:
Original post by krikkit
Ask for what you feel you are worth. Understand they are in the business of making and saving money, and if you are willing to buy into that, they will gladly pay you less.
If they won't match it, then as I see it you've got three choices.
1. Decline and quit.
2. Accept their lower wage and work extra hard, hoping to get really great raises while overperforming for underpayment.
3. Accept their lower wage and lower the quality of your work to match their wage. Still sucks but at least you arent getting laughed at to the bank for being superproductive for no money. Start reading monster.com during work hours.


Agreed, I'd have to say that you should start looking at other jobs even as a barganing chip for your discussion. If it comes down to it you can play the "okay, well I am/will be looking for a better position somewhere else" card.
--Ter'Lenth
capn_midnight
capn_midnight
Quote:
Original post by Terlenth
Quote:
Original post by capn_midnight
Quote:
Original post by superdeveloper
It does seem very low actually. What other benefits does the company offer?

Stock purchase plan?
How many weeks vacation?
Health plan?
Retirement plan?
memberships?

Ultimately, when you lay your cards down on the table, you will know just how much you really are worth to them. If they don't budge, then they rate your responsibility at that pay (which IMO is not the greatest).

that's the thing, I don't know the full benefit package. I know there is a health plan, but I've heard it's "okay..." (yes, you can hear people pronounce the ellipsis). There is a 401(k) plan, but I don't know how much I'll be paying in, if and/or how much the company will match, etc. Memberships, I haven't heard anything about anything. Vacation is an accrual system that I don't recall if it's one week or two to start (though judging from everything else is only 1 week). Stock purchase, no clue.

Who would you be talking to about this? Would it be someone who could answer these questions for you? If so, don't go into the conversation with an entirely one set mind.

Ask about medical benefits, etc. If you feel that the 35K plus whatever else you can get is worth it then you might lighten up on a couple things. I'd still say that you should go for a higher salary aswell, but the ultimate call is up to you.

I included what I could remember of the benefits package on the payscale report site, so even including 401(k), health insurance, and 2 weeks of vacation (for 0 years of experience and 0 years at the company), it still said 65K for this area.
cmptrgear
cmptrgear
I'm not sure how things work if you are an intern changing to a full time employee but usually when you are a new hire you meet with someone in the HR department (assuming your company is large enough to have one) and they go over all the details of the benefits package, pay rate, vacation time etc. I bet you could call someone in the HR department and find out all of this information, not necessarily your particular benefits but the benefits in general.
"Pfft, Facts! Facts can be used to prove anything!" -- Homer J. Simpson
capn_midnight
capn_midnight
Quote:
Original post by cmptrgear
I'm not sure how things work if you are an intern changing to a full time employee but usually when you are a new hire you meet with someone in the HR department (assuming your company is large enough to have one) and they go over all the details of the benefits package, pay rate, vacation time etc. I bet you could call someone in the HR department and find out all of this information, not necessarily your particular benefits but the benefits in general.

when I started they went over some of it, but they skipped/glossed over the health package, vacation, and retirement because I wouldn't be receiving them as an intern.
krikkit
krikkit
As a prospective employee you do have the right to consult with HR about all these things. Ask for a meeting to be set up ASAP.
capn_midnight
capn_midnight
shit, I'm starting to shake...

Earlier, I left a message with my boss about setting up a meeting. I just talked to one of the upper managers, sort of our local HR guy (I wonder if there is a hiearchy chart around here somewhere). Just as I was talking to him, my boss IMed him that he had got my message. Just after I hung up with the HR guy, my boss IMed me that he got my message. HR guy is going to stop by my cube later to "answer my questions".
krikkit
krikkit
Dont get nervous. Get a piece of paper and write down your questions, and the reasons why they are important. Make sure your questions get answered, but be prepared to understand their POV.

Terlenth
Terlenth
Quote:
Original post by capn_midnight
shit, I'm starting to shake...

Earlier, I left a message with my boss about setting up a meeting. I just talked to one of the upper managers, sort of our local HR guy (I wonder if there is a hiearchy chart around here somewhere). Just as I was talking to him, my boss IMed him that he had got my message. Just after I hung up with the HR guy, my boss IMed me that he got my message. HR guy is going to stop by my cube later to "answer my questions".


Ok, I have experience with the nervousness factor =P. Just don't psyche yourself out. It happens really easily, but just try to remain calm. Think about something relaxing. If you've got a banana within easy access I'd grab it and eat it now, worked wonders for piano performances for me.

Just remember, you made it to where you are because you deserve to be there. Not only do you deserve it, you earned it.
--Ter'Lenth
Brian Sandberg
Brian Sandberg
Quote:
Original post by Terlenth
Well they definately are low balling you. I'd have to say the only real way that you can handle this would be to tell them flat out.

Tell them that you've done some research into the pay salaries of full time software employees and that the *raise* they are proposing gives you a salary less than the industry standard. Also, if they would like to retain your services that they should at least meet the industry standard.

At least that would be the basics of it. You can sugar coat it as you see fit. But, I'd have to say that you'll have to be forceful and possibly some sort of ultimatum.

--Ter'Lenth


I can't help agreeing with Ter'Lenth. Unless you *really* need this job, the only thing to do is call bullshit, ask if they are unsatisfied with your performance, and why you then should be paid substantially below average. Do you have any idea about what your co-workers earn?

capn_midnight
capn_midnight
Quote:
Original post by Brian Sandberg
Quote:
Original post by Terlenth
Well they definately are low balling you. I'd have to say the only real way that you can handle this would be to tell them flat out.

Tell them that you've done some research into the pay salaries of full time software employees and that the *raise* they are proposing gives you a salary less than the industry standard. Also, if they would like to retain your services that they should at least meet the industry standard.

At least that would be the basics of it. You can sugar coat it as you see fit. But, I'd have to say that you'll have to be forceful and possibly some sort of ultimatum.

--Ter'Lenth


I can't help agreeing with Ter'Lenth. Unless you *really* need this job, the only thing to do is call bullshit, ask if they are unsatisfied with your performance, and why you then should be paid substantially below average. Do you have any idea about what your co-workers earn?
Not really, but one guy that was basically in my position a year ago seemed to indicate that 35K was not far from what he is making now.

Selsesstissan
Selsesstissan
I would also ask about how often their performance reviews are done. Some companies don't offer as much to start but if you perform well the first raise will get you to where you should be. You also have to take into account what the standard of living is in your area. If its high, then you should be paid more, but if its lower than 35k is probably about right as a starting point with no experience.

Personally, if I liked the job and the area I would take the position. You can always look elsewhere later if your salary doesnt go up after your first review. The first few years getting industry experience and contacts is much more important in the long run then what you are paid the first year out of school.

You have to remember the 65k+ figures are skewed because many of the people surveyed are from urban areas where your cost of living is much higher and the IT market is still flooded with more employees than positions so employers don't have to offer high salaries to get new graduates.

Most importantly, if you decide to turn them down make sure you have other options.
Afterwinds
pinacolada
pinacolada
Companies don't really "low-ball" people. They generally pay what they think you are worth. They don't just pay the lowest amount that they think they can get away with.

The reason they don't low-ball is that a) they assume that employees are going to eventually shop around, see if they can get better salaries at other places, b) they also assume that employees are occasionally going to share salary information, and c) employees are a valuable resource. It is WAY more costly for them to lose a good employee than to save that extra money off the top.

Granted some companies are cheaper than others. And you may be able to find a position somewhere else where they value you more. But definitely stop thinking that these guys are out to screw you. They're most likely not.

Like other people have mentioned, your salary is going to be directly proportional to the cost of living in your area. I'm guessing that the cost of living in Chambersburg is really low. Most software people live in places with high costs-of-living (like California), and these salaries raise the national average.

If you want to check what your salary "should" be, you need to find information for people in your position in your area.
Brian Sandberg
Brian Sandberg
Quote:
Original post by Selsesstissan
I would also ask about how often their performance reviews are done. Some companies don't offer as much to start but if you perform well the first raise will get you to where you should be.

Personally, if I liked the job and the area I would take the position. You can always look elsewhere later if your salary doesnt go up after your first review. The first few years getting industry experience and contacts is much more important in the long run then what you are paid the first year out of school.


Well, if you have been working there for a couple of months, they already are satisfied with your performance, if they offer you to stay.

My point is that the salary-question should be raised; it's not just about money, but respect. I wouldn't like feeling that I was getting a lot less than I was worth, and I certainly wouldn't like it if my clients felt that they could pay me less than the next guy. My advice is not to be railroaded into *anything*, but find out about wages in the area and company, ask about the difference, and then decide if it is acceptable to you.

But of cource getting industry experience should not be underestimated (if it is at a place with a culture focused on writing quality code), and it would certainly be better to keep the job while looking for another - if the situation ends up being unsatisfying.

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