[java] Language IDE combination

Switch to unix and use emacs. That should solve all your problems.

Windows systems are the target of most games, so switching isn't exactly an option. Though development in the unix environment should be portable, its not likely. This is more of a design/philosophy of IDE/Languages. But you're right -- why should anyone embrace Eclipse, or NetBeans when there is Emacs?

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Original post by Lucidquiet But you're right -- why should anyone embrace Eclipse, or NetBeans when there is Emacs?

Because Emacs sucks.

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Original post by Lucidquiet Why shouldn't the tools of the programmer remain that, tools, each useable seperately?

They once were. But there's this thing called evolution people tend to like. ;)

I understand your concern (i've seen your other posts), but if an IDE is well implemented (fast and stable), the more features it has, the better it is for the user. Note that the user doesn't have to use all the IDE's features - he may freely use others. But most people prefer having a complete IDE than having to install several tools seperately, that may not even work that well together.

To sum it all up, I like having a complete IDE with built-in tools and have the choice of using other 3rd party tools if I dislike the ones provided by the IDE.

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Original post by Arild Fines Quote: Original post by Lucidquiet But you're right -- why should anyone embrace Eclipse, or NetBeans when there is Emacs? Because Emacs sucks.

Haha -- I totally agree. Don't misunderstand me -- I'm not advocating Emacs, and Linux. I'm just not fond of Eclipse, and NetBeans (they are just way to slow for my taste). And not every computer I have to use has a Gig of memory -- why should I need that much memory just to edit a text file, and then run the compiler?

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I'm using a 1 GB machine and it's still too damn slow. I guess 1 GB must be the minimal hardware requirements to run the thing. The recommended hardware must be... hmm... I wouldn't recommend any computer to run Netbeans on. [lol]

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Original post by Blew Quote: Original post by Lucidquiet Why shouldn't the tools of the programmer remain that, tools, each useable seperately? They once were. But there's this thing called evolution people tend to like. ;)

~;) Alright, but how is NetBeans or Eclipse "evolution"? I'm not following this. I admit, using and invoking command line scripts or creating some odd looking one liner to invoke those previously mentioned tools is borderring on insanity. Especially if each tool has some kind of strange cmd-line interface language.

I think part of my gripe is that NetBeans and Eclipse are both supposedly the top of the line in Java Applications, and I have in the past felt that Java would be good for making things like Source Editors, but their performance, isn't exactly inspiring. (Does anyone wonder why newbies always ask if Java is slow?)

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Original post by Lucidquiet And not every computer I have to use has a Gig of memory -- why should I need that much memory just to edit a text file, and then run the compiler?

You don't need that much memory to edit a text file and run the compiler. Myself, I'm a pretty big fan of Visual Studio .NET, have been using it since beta 2 of VS 2002 back in the summer of 2001. I like it for the project management capabilities, the debugger, the intellisense and (in VS2005) the refactoring capabilities.

However, if I do something which only requires a single source file, I fire up something like SciTE (or gvim if I'm on unix) and drive the compiler from the command line. This works pretty well, but it doesn't scale to large projects with several build targets, hundreds of files etc. That's where IDEs like VS.NET and Eclipse shine.

That's strange because the runtime footprint of Eclipse which I have open here seems to be 200MB, not a gig. What's more it would appear to be super fast at doing most stuff... certainly a lot bloody faster than all that wanking around with the command line.

BTW eclipse lovers using Java 5.0, try this commandline out to launch it and rejoice:

C:\eclipse\eclipse.exe -server -XX:CompileThreshold=100 -XX:+UseConcMarkSweepGC -XX:+UseParNewGC -Xincgc -Xms64m -Xmx128m -XX:JavaPriority10_To_OSPriority=10 -XX:JavaPriority9_To_OSPriority=9

Takes quite a while to start up but once it's open it runs as fast as you need. Those -XX:JavaPriority10_To_OSPriority flags are in there to stop Java 5.0 buggering around with time critical threads when it shouldn't do (naughty Sun).

Cas :)

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Original post by Arild Fines Quote: Original post by Lucidquiet And not every computer I have to use has a Gig of memory -- why should I need that much memory just to edit a text file, and then run the compiler? You don't need that much memory to edit a text file and run the compiler. Myself, I'm a pretty big fan of Visual Studio .NET, have been using it since beta 2 of VS 2002 back in the summer of 2001. I like it for the project management capabilities, the debugger, the intellisense and (in VS2005) the refactoring capabilities. However, if I do something which only requires a single source file, I fire up something like SciTE (or gvim if I'm on unix) and drive the compiler from the command line. This works pretty well, but it doesn't scale to large projects with several build targets, hundreds of files etc. That's where IDEs like VS.NET and Eclipse shine.

So the biggest draw to is that it can generate and maintain a Makefile, or an Ant script ant that's makes VS.NET and Eclipse shine?

By "project management capabilities" what do you mean? The make scripts? Is debugging best done inside an IDE neccessary? -- I have to admit clicking on an error and having the IDE go straight to the line in a source file is nice.

I'm not saying that I don't fall back on VI/Notepad to edit one text file, of course anyone would.

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Original post by princec That's strange because the runtime footprint of Eclipse which I have open here seems to be 200MB, not a gig. What's more it would appear to be super fast at doing most stuff... certainly a lot bloody faster than all that wanking around with the command line. BTW eclipse lovers using Java 5.0, try this commandline out to launch it and rejoice: C:\eclipse\eclipse.exe -server -XX:CompileThreshold=100 -XX:+UseConcMarkSweepGC -XX:+UseParNewGC -Xincgc -Xms64m -Xmx128m -XX:JavaPriority10_To_OSPriority=10 -XX:JavaPriority9_To_OSPriority=9 Takes quite a while to start up but once it's open it runs as fast as you need. Those -XX:JavaPriority10_To_OSPriority flags are in there to stop Java 5.0 buggering around with time critical threads when it shouldn't do (naughty Sun). Cas :)

Right there -- that isn't wanking around with the command line? Seems like you got exactly what you wanted through the command line. It might have a 200MB footprint, but I've only seen it run well on a machine with a Gig of memory. 200MB is pretty big for sitting idle.

I'm not saying that the command line is the way to go. What I'm asking is the above questions:

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For discussion: Should a source code editor, IDE, attempt to support multiple languages? And ancillary functionality? Is there a "need" for an IDE to support pluggable text editors? Does an integrated development environment help or hinder the development of important tools such as profilers, debuggers, refactorring tools, because the design of these tools must "also" support plugging into several different types of IDEs. How many languages are typically used on a single project -- some XML-Derivative, a Scripting Language, and the Core Language? 3? Why shouldn't the tools of the programmer remain that, tools, each useable seperately? Something that has been pesterring me for a while,

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Original post by Lucidquiet ~;) Alright, but how is NetBeans or Eclipse "evolution"?

I believe they are an evolution on command line scripts, no doubt about it. A GUI is always a GUI.

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Original post by LucidquietI think part of my gripe is that NetBeans and Eclipse are both supposedly the top of the line in Java Applications, and I have in the past felt that Java would be good for making things like Source Editors, but their performance, isn't exactly inspiring.

I wasn't really thinking about those Java IDEs. My previous post had in mind C++ IDEs particularly. My favorite one is MSVC and that's the best example out there of a GOOD IDE, showing that there was really an evolution. ;)

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Original post by princec That's strange because the runtime footprint of Eclipse which I have open here seems to be 200MB, not a gig. What's more it would appear to be super fast at doing most stuff... certainly a lot bloody faster than all that wanking around with the command line.

But that's 200MB plus whatever your OS needs (Windows...need we say more?), PLUS whatever your application needs, and if you have any other development tools running like a database, web server, graphics program, or whatever... you'd be crazy to have less than 1 gb of ram.

That said Eclipse is still a great IDE and one of the best tools out there IMO. Although, I've been trying the MyEclipse (trial) plugin with it, and that DOES make it very VERY slow even at doing something as simple as opening up a small source file.

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Original post by Lucidquiet Quote: Original post by princec That's strange because the runtime footprint of Eclipse which I have open here seems to be 200MB, not a gig. What's more it would appear to be super fast at doing most stuff... certainly a lot bloody faster than all that wanking around with the command line. BTW eclipse lovers using Java 5.0, try this commandline out to launch it and rejoice: C:\eclipse\eclipse.exe -server -XX:CompileThreshold=100 -XX:+UseConcMarkSweepGC -XX:+UseParNewGC -Xincgc -Xms64m -Xmx128m -XX:JavaPriority10_To_OSPriority=10 -XX:JavaPriority9_To_OSPriority=9 Takes quite a while to start up but once it's open it runs as fast as you need. Those -XX:JavaPriority10_To_OSPriority flags are in there to stop Java 5.0 buggering around with time critical threads when it shouldn't do (naughty Sun). Cas :) Right there -- that isn't wanking around with the command line? Seems like you got exactly what you wanted through the command line. It might have a 200MB footprint, but I've only seen it run well on a machine with a Gig of memory. 200MB is pretty big for sitting idle.

I have an AMD 1.0GHz and 512MB RAM and have no problem running Eclipse. Loads a little slow, but once it is loaded it goes like a charm.

My lap top with ~384 MB and AMD 1.2 GHZ runs both NetBeans, Eclipse, and RefactorIT like crap. My Tower with a 4ghz Pentium, and 1gb of Ram smokes (water cooled) doesn't even think about it much. There was a performance boost in the Laptop when I upgraded from 128 to 384. Most things work pretty good now, sort of. Since when is 300mb of mem and >1gig processor an unworthy machine? For something that is mostly not graphic intensive?

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IIRC this post began as a discussion of why "everything" needs to be integrated into one IDE?

I think one of the biggest things every one missed is convenience. Using an IDE, I don't have to have a dozen windows open at a time (Textpad, command line, windows explorer, etc). That's the reason I use an IDE. I don't use most of the extras like Ant support in Eclipse. Granted, these are very handy features, but they're extra fluff added to an important tool.

The most important thing in an IDE is that it does exactly what you need it to do. If it does extra stuff, that's fine, just ignore it. IDEs are about convenience.

I haven't read it myself, but the Pragmatic Programmer (by Dave Thomas, who is a fantastic speaker, I might add) talks about using a tool that you are comfortable with. You want to be able to be efficient, and not mucking around in things.

So find an IDE and stick with it. Or not... Continue to use Vi/Emacs/Notepad if that's what you want. As long as it gets the job done efficiently and conveniently.

Have you guys used emacs? I use it on linux and I am able to run a compiler and debugger and everything else I need from emacs (literally, I can use email and stuff from there too (not that I do)), no need to go to the command line. People have written so many emacs scripts that I can just download what scripts I want to do what I want. The ones I use call the compiler and debugger. I don't have a makfile generator that I can use from it but I am sure there is. So if you wanted to you could probally do build, rebuild, compile, and run from emacs (I will look into something that calls automake for me soon, writing makefiles is pissing me off).

Use text editor in place of emacs please. Emacs is more then that, it's my OS and Linux is my device driver. Ok thats not how I use it, but I know someone who pretty much does that.

Emacs is ugly.

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Original post by Ainokea Have you guys used emacs? I use it on linux and I am able to run a compiler and debugger and everything else I need from emacs (literally, I can use email and stuff from there too (not that I do)), no need to go to the command line. People have written so many emacs scripts that I can just download what scripts I want to do what I want. The ones I use call the compiler and debugger. I don't have a makfile generator that I can use from it but I am sure there is. So if you wanted to you could probally do build, rebuild, compile, and run from emacs (I will look into something that calls automake for me soon, writing makefiles is pissing me off). Use text editor in place of emacs please. Emacs is more then that, it's my OS and Linux is my device driver. Ok thats not how I use it, but I know someone who pretty much does that.

This is how it should be. Perhaps emacs is uggly (not pretty to look at). So what. That can probably be fixed. Or perhaps emacs "feels" odd to work with, and uses a user interface that is outdated today. That too can be fixed. The point here is the philosophy behind emacs. Emacs uses scripts just like the the command line, and it doesn't require that you open >3 windows or anything, and there is a giant library of things that can be plugged into it fairly easy. So why take 5 steps back and use buttons, and views that are mostly just static (mostly text presentation)? Is this the evolution (or de-evolution) of GUIs to make them dumb and less powerfull? Besides if Graphics is indeed where Java is going to struggle, then why attempt to make something like IDEs graphically intensive... and >300 MB on WinOS XP? Java can run well, just like any other platform if its not required to produce much visual output. Parse a script, execute that script on the source code. Fire up the compiler, run the debugger, and change the standard output to output the debug info? The power here is the script. I see Win Programs embracing scripts (VBA), Maya(Maya Script) 3DMax(MaxScript) AutoCad(Lisp) and Java programs trying to avoid them for ease of use.

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IMHO AutoDesk and MS have the same agenda.