Kings Quest 9 FOXED: NOOOOO!!!!

The KQ9 team have only themselves to blame. They should have known. They could have made the same game without stealing someone else's IP. They can still continue to make the same game and have it be a tribute or parody of KQ. No need to steal the IP.

How were they not expecting this to happen? The same thing happened with the Chrono Trigger remake which, after having gigantic amounts of work put into it, was shut down by squaresoft. From what I understand, in some ways it makes sense that those who hold the IP would close the game down. If the game is really good, people might say 'well why the heck did Vivendi not make a game this good then? What idiots', or in the case it really is quite terrible, a lot of people will assume it was made by Vivendi, giving them bad coverage when it is not even their release.

I don't understand this concept that because someone likes something that gives them the right to take it/use it without the creator's permission.

The fact it was free is irrelevant as is the fact that the IP owner happened to be a big company - IP rights are for everyone. We don't know what Vivendi's plans were for KQ. They may be planning a new game or they may specifically not want a KQ game out because they feel it will interfere with other plans they have or they may just want to bury it in a compost heap at the end of the garden and forget it and that is their right because it is their IP.

What is a shame is that a bunch of people with obvious skill and talent wasted it doing a rip off of someone elses IP. They knew that what they were doing was wrong and what the likely outcome would be. With the commercial development industry being so heavily critisised for producing endless sequels its a pity to see a talented indie team doing the same thing.

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Original post by Obscure I don't understand this concept that because someone likes something that gives them the right to take it/use it without the creator's permission. The fact it was free is irrelevant as is the fact that the IP owner happened to be a big company - IP rights are for everyone. We don't know what Vivendi's plans were for KQ. They may be planning a new game or they may specifically not want a KQ game out because they feel it will interfere with other plans they have or they may just want to bury it in a compost heap at the end of the garden and forget it and that is their right because it is their IP. What is a shame is that a bunch of people with obvious skill and talent wasted it doing a rip off of someone elses IP. They knew that what they were doing was wrong and what the likely outcome would be. With the commercial development industry being so heavily critisised for producing endless sequels its a pity to see a talented indie team doing the same thing.

I agree, although on the other hand, if the people are tallented, they should do what some other people do, create the game and make the names similar, then write in big letters at the start, this is a fan game made in tribute for .....

or again if they are that good, maybe tell the ip owners and asking if they want a sequal! but going behind someones back and doing it anyway is a sure way to get in to bad books!

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Original post by Obscure What is a shame is that a bunch of people with obvious skill and talent wasted it doing a rip off of someone elses IP.

But then again, you have to wonder whether they would even be united in the first place if it weren't for their singular love of the KQ series. Without a common, clear vision amongst all team members, most computer games never even get off the ground to begin with. Starting with something as passionate as KQ gives everyone that needed vision and makes it seem like everyone is striving for a "common interest" goal rather than just some idea someone had.

Ok, I'm curious... How does an endevour like this differ from the remake of a song? Music is IP and songs are remade all the time. Nobody calls that stealing.

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Original post by kseh Ok, I'm curious... How does an endevour like this differ from the remake of a song? Music is IP and songs are remade all the time. Nobody calls that stealing.

Because they paid royalties and got permission. Often times it's the label that owns the song and not the artist. These guys were a team that took it upon themselves to try and continue someone else's series.

Indeed.

there are a few angles to look at this.

From a clear business/legal standpoint (which is apprent THE standpoint)

it was absolutely wrong of them to try and make a game using the intellectual properties of others. case closed.


However, we as human beings are not machines, nor are we all to-the-letter business professionals.

Exibit A. Kings Quest

Original design by Roberta Williams, created by employees of a company that her husband and she owned (sierra on-line).

Sierra is sold (a bunch of times) eventually ending up as part of the mega-corp Vivendi Universal, of which is seems 'Sierra' is now only a brand-name, and of course no longer the husband-wife led duo which added to the romanticisim of their games.

The last game based on the KQ IP (and VERY LOOSELY, save for the KQ name) was in 1998 (Kings Quest - Mask of Eternity)

Now here we sit about 9 years later, waiting for the Kings Quest series to continue, and it seems that it wont.

So, are we as fans of the series going to just let that happen?

Business says yes, fans say no.

Okay, now lets flip the switch a bit:


Morning's Wrath

Let us say that Morning's Wrath (our game for those who don't know), is a hit, sells many many many copies. And after 9 years, we have not voiced any intention of continuing the serries IN FACT, lets say that we dont even make those kinds of games any more.

Is it wrong for a team of indies to come together and make Morning's Wrath 2, and release it for NO PROFIT?

Business says yes, I personally say no, [HOWEVER] I would like it if they asked permission, mainly so I would know about it.

So it seems we are left with 'it is up to the IP owners', however this is a large suppression of creativity, and it just another example of how big business is hurting creativity of games, under those circumstances I can see no reason for stoping an indipendant team from using, seemingly, long dead IP.

You call it justice? I call it picking on the little guy.

Anyhow that is my take on the subject =)

This is probably a question of political standing as far as IP owned by big companies go. However, the fact remains that if you don't protect your IP, then you can lose your grip of it. So yeah...it was the creators fault that they got shut down like this. How many more projects like these need to get shut down before people start realizing that breaking the law...is still breaking the law. -_-

Seriously. I understand that the people involved in this undertaking were big fans of the KQ series, and wanted to pay homage to the series as well as creating their own game. But really, did they have no ideas of their own? Especially given that KQ's world is as Tolkien-derivative as they come. They could have made the game their own, perhaps with some KQ inside jokes (for which there is ample precedent in the industry), but instead they just left themselves wide open. And now that this C&D is hanging over their head, if they want to release any sort of a game, they'll have to be REALLY careful not to step on Sierra's IP toes. After all, they already out-and-out admitted they planned to infringe.

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Original post by Obscure I don't understand this concept that because someone likes something that gives them the right to take it/use it without the creator's permission.

...


Are you kidding?



This is how human society has operated for thousands of years. It's only within the last 200 years that "intellectual property" has started existing.

Stories were passed down, modified, amended for generations and generations. Songs, artwork... the list goes on.


This whole obsession with "intellectual property" is, quite frankly, very destructive to society.

I'M GOING TO SUE YOU BECAUSE FOUR NOTES IN YOUR SONG MATCH FOUR NOTES IN MY SONG! (yes, there is legal precedent for this; 4 notes is now considered copying)

Did you hear that the music companies now want money from google (and every other search engine in existence?), every time someone types in the name of one of their artists? Say you go to google, type in "Madonna". Warner Music wants google to pay them for that now. I kid you not. Their rationale is that google is making money off of Madonna (ie: advertising dollars from the text ads that pop up on the side), and they deserve part of the cut, because she is their intellectual property.

What. The. Fuck.



This has gone waaaay too fucking far.




Anyway, my point is; yes, it was stupid of someone to go ahead continue someone elses story, but don't pretend that this is something new or even wrong. Humans have been doing it for thousands of years.

It isn't really the IP that matters in this case but the trademarked names. I'm not a lawyer, but iirc all registered trademarks MUST be defended or the owner loses the rights to it which would mean anybody could make a game called "King's Quest"

They should keep the engine and make a new game that doesn't infringe IP.

Interestingly, Zelda Classic still seems to be going strong after about four or five years.

I don't get it.

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Original post by EDI The last game based on the KQ IP (and VERY LOOSELY, save for the KQ name) was in 1998 (Kings Quest - Mask of Eternity) Now here we sit about 9 years later, waiting for the Kings Quest series to continue, and it seems that it wont.

You're not qualified to make that assumption as you don't know what the IP owner's intentions are. Infogrammes released Alone in the Dark 4 10 years after AITD3. Cinemaware revived the Defender of the Crown IP over 15 years after its initial release and I know of several other IPs from that time that are planned to be revamped.

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So, are we as fans of the series going to just let that happen? Business says yes, fans say no.

I like it so I'm just gonna take it!

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So it seems we are left with 'it is up to the IP owners', however this is a large suppression of creativity, and it just another example of how big business is hurting creativity of games, under those circumstances I can see no reason for stoping an indipendant team from using, seemingly, long dead IP.

ROFL what creativity? They are ripping off the ideas of others. If they were being creative they would come up with their own original ideas.

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You call it justice? I call it picking on the little guy.

So you are saying that if Infogrames decided to rip off Vivendi's IP and do a KQ game that Vivendi wouldn't take action because Infogrames aren't a little guy? Of course not - It has nothing to do with picking on the little guy at all. They would take action regardless of who it was.

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Original post by Obscure I like it so I'm just gonna take it!

What is there to take?

A group is making a FREEWARE game based on characters and settings from a story; You call IP infringement, I call Fan-Fiction.

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Original post by Obscure ROFL what creativity? They are ripping off the ideas of others. If they were being creative they would come up with their own original ideas.

[hypothetical and sarcastic]
Your game uses video, the mouse and the keyboard! And we both use a main-menu system, and you call the ability to come back and continue your game later 'bookmarking'; You have infringed my Intellectual Properties!

How is that different from using the words:

Kings Quest, King Graham, Queen Valanice, Princess Rossella, Prince Alexander and The Kingdom of Daventry, in a game?

If the KQ serries seemed to be alive and well in VU's hands, then I would not support the 'infringement' of the IP


Point is, it is not like they are re-making Kings Quest 3, or somthing. They are using the 'basis' of the world, and pointing it in a new direction for their fan game.

The proof is in the pudding, if VU was keeping the KQ fans happy this never would have happened.

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Original post by Obscure So you are saying that if Infogrames decided to rip off Vivendi's IP and do a KQ game that Vivendi wouldn't take action because Infogrames aren't a little guy? Of course not - It has nothing to do with picking on the little guy at all. They would take action regardless of who it was.

Point is, if you have a group of people, making an extended Fan-Fiction game, and releasing it for FREE. If there was profit involved I would say no-way.

There are only two potential things that could come of this game:

1. The Good: Reviving the IP (new KQ players anyone?)
2. The Bad: Diluting the IP (Roberta is not there to keep it 'on track'), however I would say that no matter what, if roberta williams didin't make it, it's not Kings Quest.. but I for one would rather have a KQ game made by fans, than one made by the so-called decision making experts of VU, which seem to know as much about adventure games as I know about nuclear physics (that is to say, very little)

I stand with my judgement, swatting around fans who are trying to revive loved IP, which has gone stale, is a bad move, and is going to do nothing but make adventure gamers hate VU, and create even more restricted creativity (just because all glass is made of sand, doesnt mean all glass is the same)


Take all that apart, the problem is that some people see games and their IP as Just another comodity however, fans and certain indies see the continuation of a series more important than the bottom line (hence the team working for nothing and planning to get nothing)

There was a time when games were art, and it seems that has been stolen from us over the years, but I am glad to see people are still fighting, and hopefully they keep on fighting.

Hopefully they rename the game and strip out the assets. I have been following the development and it seems like they are working unbelievably hard on it. It deserves to be played even if it is without the (somewhat tarnished after KQ8) King's Quest name.

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Original post by Ravuya Hopefully they rename the game and strip out the assets. I have been following the development and it seems like they are working unbelievably hard on it. It deserves to be played even if it is without the (somewhat tarnished after KQ8) King's Quest name.

Indeed, I would say from the perspective of the fans (and probably roberta herself), KQ8 did more harm to the series than any fan game could ever do.

Why? because it wore the SIERRA logo, and the Kings Quest Trademark, symbols which are supposed to reflect an air of quality and trust in a product, but instead gave long time fans a game that sucked (according to them).

Way to cultivate the IP, eh?

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Original post by Ravuya Hopefully they rename the game and strip out the assets. I have been following the development and it seems like they are working unbelievably hard on it. It deserves to be played even if it is without the (somewhat tarnished after KQ8) King's Quest name.

Unfortunately IP law states that derivative work is still copyright infringement.

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Original post by EDI What is there to take? A group is making a FREEWARE game based on characters and settings from a story; You call IP infringement, I call Fan-Fiction.

...and fanfiction is still derivative work and is therefore still IP infringement. You know at least they didn't get shut down by fox. Making fan sites with someone elses intellectual property is still infringement. I believe the only argument you can use in that case would be "fair use" and it would have to be informative, educational or paradoy. I think someone mentioned that in an earlier post.

But yeah it sucks.

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Original post by Mithrandir ...I'm bitter...

Times have changed. Land, agriculture, production...those are no longer valuable commodities. Its information. With that, people have become more aggressive with keeping their grip over their IP rights. Reform would be nice I guess, but its unlikely to happen with IP holders having way more leverage than those who would potentially infringe on them.

Oh and lighten up man. You're always so angry. ;) Look at the bright side, at least Vivendi isn't going to lose potential profits now and millions of investors around the world will rejoyce. Whee.

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Original post by EDI What is there to take? A group is making a FREEWARE game based on characters and settings from a story; You call IP infringement, I call Fan-Fiction.

Correction, you call it fan-fiction and the law calls it infringement. This isn't your opinion vs mine it is your opinion vs the law. That law may be an ass in your eyes but it is still the law. Unless you have done anything at all to get that law changed (such as writing to your representative) then I don't see that your belief is that strong.

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[hypothetical and sarcastic] Your game uses video, the mouse and the keyboard! And we both use a main-menu system, and you call the ability to come back and continue your game later 'bookmarking'; You have infringed my Intellectual Properties! How is that different from using the words: Kings Quest, King Graham, Queen Valanice, Princess Rossella, Prince Alexander and The Kingdom of Daventry, in a game?

Sorry the two are totally different. The first set are generic terms and therefore not IP while the second are fictional names and places created by an "author" which together make up the KQ IP.

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They are using the 'basis' of the world, and pointing it in a new direction for their fan game.

This for me is the key issue. Your busy getting bent out of shape about mean global corporations but for me the point is that these people are taking someone else's IP and pointing it in a direction the IP owners may not want it to go. The fact that this particular IP happens to be owned by a big company is irrelevant. The creator/ip owner has the right (under current law) to control their creation.

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Point is, if you have a group of people, making an extended Fan-Fiction game, and releasing it for FREE. If there was profit involved I would say no-way.

Your understanding of business is flawed. As I pointed out earlier you don't know what Vivendi intend to do with the IP. Releasing a free game devalues the IP and would directly compete with any sequel they are planning.

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There are only two potential things that could come of this game: 1. The Good: Reviving the IP (new KQ players anyone?) 2. The Bad: Diluting the IP (Roberta is not there to keep it 'on track'),

No, there are three....
3. Vivendi release a KQ9 game and there are now two competing titles in the market taking the story in different directions, causing potential consummer confusion and financial loss for the IP owner.

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Take all that apart, the problem is that some people see games and their IP as Just another comodity however, fans and certain indies see the continuation of a series more important than the bottom line (hence the team working for nothing and planning to get nothing)

While many obviously view it that way there are also many IP owners who don't. They view their IP as a precious creation and don't want people taking their creations in a direction they never intended them to go. You have no knowledge of the decision making process at Vivendi. They may simply have decided there is no cash in adventures or, alternatively, they may feel that they can't do creative justice to the IP at the moment, that the adventure genre is stale and boring and that it needs a radical overhaul before a new KQ game can be made. Whichever the true situation the current law says they get to decide.

In closing I have just one final quote

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