Indie Game Development

I don't know about the tax law in other countries but if you reside in the United States you would have to pay taxes on any income earned.

So basically, even if our game is successful, we'll have to pay HUGE amounts of taxes, and basically, be very poor... Ok, I'm overreacting, damn... This sucks :'(

Only two things in life are certain - death and taxes. If you are earning from your game you are going to have to pay some sort of tax somewhere down the line.

Hmm, wait... Another little unclarity, Will I still have to pay for taxes if our team is international? We don't all work in the same country?

yes yes and yes, taxes are inevitable. to not pay the taxes would be very illegal (tax fraud). On the other hand, if you are asking if you will be reported to the IRS (a whole different matter) thats different altogether. But that would seriously hinder your ability to accept most forms of online payment (ie credit cards), and still, ill give the government 7 years before they stick you in jail, 20-30 years if we have another president like bush :)

EDIT:
The government will not go after money they dont know about it. But the government has a pretty much infinate amount of money, and will use every bit of that to FIND your money, even if its less then they spend :).

But since the money would go through Kaneva, nobody would know I really have the money, since the money is stored online.... So I will use the money secretly, how could one really know I have money? ^_^

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Original post by XVampireX But since the money would go through Kaneva, nobody would know I really have the money, since the money is stored online.... So I will use the money secretly, how could one really know I have money? ^_^

I make room, board, and ten thousand dollars a year as a math teacher at a small private school. I pay taxes on this pittance - please pay taxes on yours. There are a lot of arguments you can make about unfairness of taxes (e.g. "I don't have kids" or "I don't want to support the military"), but none of them will be as convincing as, "well, he's just lying and not paying ANYTHING." It sucks, but it's also nice to have roads, garbage collection, and police.

Hmm, well I've been talking with my father and he seems to know some about taxes. He says that at best cases the taxes would be around 30%, but if our game is successful enough then it wouldn't be too much of a problem. I have a great marketing plan (And no, don't tell me I need HUGE amounts of dollars just for marketing because marketing is as easy as the word of the mouth... One thing is for sure - There are plenty of GREAT games that dwell in the shadows and are not marketed as much as those of big companies).

So I decided that I will have to pay my taxes, unless there is another way and if I find it out then I'll most likely use it.

Isn't there some article which describes all the different issues with being an Indie team/company?

I sense that alot of confusion and inmaturity (as in you haven't matured as a game developer yet)

First of all, "Indie" is not a legal entity.

An "Individual" IS a legal entity and thus if you distribute this under your name and not a companies, you are liable for personal taxes. Of course, if you got bankrupt or get sued, you personally take all the liability and that is bad.

A "Company" is also a legal entity and depending on which type of company you form (LLC, S-corp, C-corp), you a liable for different tax schemes and your personal liability in the project is protected; if you go bankrupt and get sued, they can only go after company assets, not personal ones.

Second of all, trying to find a way to not do the right thing bodes poorly for your project and your future as a game developer. If generalize your attitude towards your buying your game, I would decide I don't want to pay for it and try to find ways to get it for free...ie warez...and I'm sure you wouldn't like that, would you? The Internet was paid for by our taxes. As has been mentioned, streets, schools, polices..taxes, taxes, taxes. Realize that you have no choice; if you live anywhere but the ARabian Peninsula, you will have to pay taxes or suffer the consequences...maybe not today...maybe not tommorrow...but realize the that the more POPULAR your game becomes, the more ATTENTION you draw to yourself, and the more likely the IRS will notice.

Thirdly, you have no problem doing a 50/50 split with Kaneva, but you have a problem doing a 10% split with the gov't (I seriously doubt your game income will merit the 30% tax bracket ANYTIME soon). Personally, this seems like a problem with Kaneva, not with taxes.

Lastly, fine, no one will tell you that you need money to market and that word of mouth is just not enough. Of course, no one will tell you this because no one will know or be interested in your project. Marketing by word of mouth will only get your project to the ears of a self selected few: those that are there to listen...in fact, "word of mouth" is not a Plan at all. For the other 99% of your target market, you need to do more than simply post on boards, start a blog, etc...you need to MARKET and means haveing a marketing strategy, determining viable and future markets, settting up an ad campaign, etc....and that my friend will cost money.

Good luck in your venture. I'm sure you'll see the error of you ways and committ to doing the right thing from now on. :)

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Original post by fastlane69 I sense that alot of confusion and inmaturity (as in you haven't matured as a game developer yet) First of all, "Indie" is not a legal entity. An "Individual" IS a legal entity and thus if you distribute this under your name and not a companies, you are liable for personal taxes. Of course, if you got bankrupt or get sued, you personally take all the liability and that is bad. A "Company" is also a legal entity and depending on which type of company you form (LLC, S-corp, C-corp), you a liable for different tax schemes and your personal liability in the project is protected; if you go bankrupt and get sued, they can only go after company assets, not personal ones. Second of all, trying to find a way to not do the right thing bodes poorly for your project and your future as a game developer. If generalize your attitude towards your buying your game, I would decide I don't want to pay for it and try to find ways to get it for free...ie warez...and I'm sure you wouldn't like that, would you? The Internet was paid for by our taxes. As has been mentioned, streets, schools, polices..taxes, taxes, taxes. Realize that you have no choice; if you live anywhere but the ARabian Peninsula, you will have to pay taxes or suffer the consequences...maybe not today...maybe not tommorrow...but realize the that the more POPULAR your game becomes, the more ATTENTION you draw to yourself, and the more likely the IRS will notice. Thirdly, you have no problem doing a 50/50 split with Kaneva, but you have a problem doing a 10% split with the gov't (I seriously doubt your game income will merit the 30% tax bracket ANYTIME soon). Personally, this seems like a problem with Kaneva, not with taxes. Lastly, fine, no one will tell you that you need money to market and that word of mouth is just not enough. Of course, no one will tell you this because no one will know or be interested in your project. Marketing by word of mouth will only get your project to the ears of a self selected few: those that are there to listen...in fact, "word of mouth" is not a Plan at all. For the other 99% of your target market, you need to do more than simply post on boards, start a blog, etc...you need to MARKET and means haveing a marketing strategy, determining viable and future markets, settting up an ad campaign, etc....and that my friend will cost money. Good luck in your venture. I'm sure you'll see the error of you ways and committ to doing the right thing from now on. :)

First of, it is Immaturity. (And it doesn't surprise me, because that's what I am, I am an immature, selfish, egoist and only think about getting money, also I want to rule the world and be richer than bill gates).
Second of all, I know... Don't tell me, I'm just a child when it comes to game development, heck, maybe even a baby, right? Ok, that's right, I know **** about game development, I'm a TOTAL n00b. I'm tired of everyone telling me stupid things, you always look at reality as if it was some kind of law, written in stone "Thus it shall be, because it is already tested" Ok, maybe it does... But they don't have genius people like me that could do good marketing. Yes, You could see from this post that I am a troll, or wait, am I? What would you define a troll? Someone looking for attention? Something trying to start a flame war? No, you've started a flame war with me, of course you think by telling me "Ok, so shut the fuck up, you don'tknow anything about game development, you will only FAIL FAIL AND FAIL if you do anything" how encouraging is that? Of course you try to help me.
You want me to tell you my opinion on taxes - They suck. I work hard in that company, both as a game designer and a resource provider, I am not the scripter/programmer, hence why I post mostly on Game Design forum. Why they suck? Because of what I heard of soldiers... Who cares what they get? I know they get a very minimal payment on a monthly basis, and they have to go out and risk their life for doing that... Ok, if you would have lived here in israel, you would have known that Israel is a very poor country and only those with high status or big education could get enough money to even buy a private house... Me? I live in a building with several appartments. Why? BECAUSE WE'RE POOR! Also, here in israel we MUST serve in the military. Now, don't blame me.

Ok, you can ban me from this network, do whatever you want, I know you hate me for this post and if you won't ban me, you would rate me down to 0. Why? Because this world is unfair, as much as you are not. My team leader will do buisness with you, I have no place here, bye.

You are over-reacting. Calm down.

Every game has rules. Just because we don't like them or agree with them is not an excuse to break them. So, if you want to play the game of Commercial Game Developer, learn the rules and make them work for you; otherwise don't play at all.

[Edited by - fastlane69 on October 29, 2005 9:59:19 PM]

Grow up and stop being childish. You asked a question and we have answered it. If you don't like the answers don't ask the questions - if you don't like taxes tell it to the tax man.

I don't thik he has to worry about the IRS, because last time I checked the IRS is US based, not Israel based :)
Unless he is an US citizen.

Yea, I didnt realize he was israel based, so i dont really know the tax laws there, other then im positive hes subjective to some. Then again, its probably easy enough to fake crap so long as israel and pallistine have each others heads up eachothers arses.

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Original post by PaulCesar Then again, its probably easy enough to fake crap so long as israel and pallistine have each others heads up eachothers arses.

LOL :)