Importance of Formal Education

I'm sure if you made an indy game with a team that publishers were extremely interested in due to hype, sure you might have a way into the industry. I have heard Peter Molyneux does not have a degree in CS (Keyword: Heard, not exactly sure). Anyway, math is fairly important in game programming... Thats all I can really say at the moment...

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however i'm doing really badly at it because I find it impossible to get motivated. I feel like I would be able to learn far better in my own home rather than the university environment. *edit* I should add, its not the programming side that I have trouble being motivated with, its mainly the maths/other subjects I'm taking. So I would love to just take the CS subjects, but then I would not end up with a degree.

Keep in mind that the subjects are there for a reason. They want you to learn algorithm theory, math and a dozen other things because it's actually important to a good programmer.
You might be able to learn "better" in your home, but what would you learn? Would you learn just by cutting away the boring bits? How helpful would that be?

I'm not saying you should stick with your degree no matter what. If you don't like it, that's all there is to it. But don't start thinking you can beat your university at their own game. A CS degree covers a lot of topics you might not learn about on your own, but which often turn out to be useful.

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so I'm wondering - if I had made a decent demo, would it count for just as much/more than a degree? Or are game companies generally more interested in how many pieces of paper I own?

A good demo carries a lot of weight. Possibly even more than a CS degree. But it's nothing compared to a CS degree *and* a good demo.

It's a difficult one to answer. Having a degree will certainly help you when applying for jobs in general (not necessarily ones in the games industry), and you'd certainly be closing a few doors if you drop out. If you can't find a job with games quickly, which is quite possible given the amount of competition, a sensible route in the short-term would be to get, say, a programming job in another field to gain commercial experience. This, coupled with a good demo, would give you a stronger chance of then getting that job you actually want.

That said, a degree certainly isn't the be-all and end-all. If you're not enjoying it then chances are that you won't be learning much and could just be wasting your time.

My advice? Speak to your tutor. Sometimes they will allow people to drop the odd module and make up the credits elsewhere. I'm not sure what stage you're at, but I'm guessing it's still the first year which is usually designed to give a very broad grounding. You'll find that everything becomes much more specialised in the 2nd and 3rd year, and that you can chose the modules that interest you. You may find that if you stick out this year you won't have to continue with the bits that you don't like after that. Sit down and discuss all your options, and then you'll be able to make an informed decision on what's best for you.

Programming just helps you communicate with a computer. It's a skill but you still need to be able to do something with the computer - this is where the other subjects come in.

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so I'm wondering - if I had made a decent demo, would it count for just as much/more than a degree? Or are game companies generally more interested in how many pieces of paper I own?

Creating a decent demo is necessary for you to get a game coding job, but unless it's ground-breaking those "pieces of paper" tell your employer that you can learn new things and have a decent education.

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however i'm doing really badly at it because I find it impossible to get motivated. I feel like I would be able to learn far better in my own home rather than the university environment.

The problem with learning by yourself is that you don't necessarily know what to learn, and you tend to choose the easier topics. You can still work at home but follow the syllabus given to you by your uni, lectures aren't compulsory. (At my uni anyway..)

A degree helps you during the narrowing process. It's your skills that will land you the job. But an HR looking through a 1000 resumes is going to toss out those without applicable degrees often enough, to get that number down a large chunk. That's not to say you have no shot at the job, but it's more likely that your portfolio won't even be looked at in a high interest job.

Another important thing is those "uninteresting" classes can be important to your success in the job market. You can be a great programmer, but more often places are looking for someone who is more well rounded. Business and communication skills are pretty important too. And being uninterested in math can be fairly bad, especially in games programming. Your math classes likely arn't relating that math to you in a way that you can use it practically in your programming, but there are uses for it. I'm certainly not the best one to explain the benefits of that, but they are there.

When I was studying at UniSA (Mawson Lakes campus), I was able to study externally (meaning I could do all my pracs and tutorials online). Worked pretty well for me, and didn't force me to get up at 6am to catch the train. Might work for you.

i recommend going for the CS degree..then again I'm going for a CS and Math degree so I could be biased:-D but both of my uncles got a CS degree and they managed to get jobs right out after college. That may not nessecarily mean a CS degree helps but I'd say it's an implication it doesn't hurt.

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Original post by gav86 OK, well basically I'm currently studyin a Ba. Computer Science, however i'm doing really badly at it because I find it impossible to get motivated. I feel like I would be able to learn far better in my own home rather than the university environment. *edit* I should add, its not the programming side that I have trouble being motivated with, its mainly the maths/other subjects I'm taking. So I would love to just take the CS subjects, but then I would not end up with a degree.

I hate to break it to you, but if you find it impossible to get motivated at school, you're probably not going to do much better in a real life software development environment. I cannot possibly express how important a formal education is when getting into any CS related field.

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so I'm wondering - if I had made a decent demo, would it count for just as much/more than a degree? Or are game companies generally more interested in how many pieces of paper I own?

Ask yourself this... Would your decent demo be developed using real software engineering techniques? Would your code have been reviewed by your peers, unit tested, user tested? Would your code follow coding standards, and a plethora of other important things that you learn how to do in college?

If not, then your demo isn't worth anything.

Demos are good.
Paper is good.
Knowing maths and sciences? Best of all.

Guess you guys are right, obviously it will be a big help to me...

The problem I have with maths at the moment is it doesn't seem relevant at all, apart from the stuff we did on matrices, etc..
I guess maybe i'm just not programming at a level where more advanced maths is needed yet -
but to give you an idea of the course, in computer science 1B which I'm doing at the moment, the most complex thing we did was draw a simple 2D "tree" in java using recursion..
I guess its going too slow for me in a way - and instead of turn up to my lectures I'm teaching myself C++, directX and whatever..

I'm actually repeating 1st year this year(all subjects except the computer science ones), I probably shouldnt have started uni last year as I had a million other things to do with my life at that point.

Anyhow I have exams coming up in the next coupla weeks so I guess I'll see how all that goes. . . I'm pretty worried about the maths still, because I just havent been taking enough interest in it and didnt bother to go to most of my lectures (and one of my maths subjects doesnt have printed notes or an 'official' textbook).

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Original post by gav86 The problem I have with maths at the moment is it doesn't seem relevant at all, apart from the stuff we did on matrices, etc.

Keep at it. I use calculus on a daily basis. There aren't any major areas of mathematics that I learned yet don't get any chances to use.

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Original post by gav86 The problem I have with maths at the moment is it doesn't seem relevant at all, apart from the stuff we did on matrices, etc..

Well, consider this. Who do you think is best able to judge the relevance? You, a bored student, or the people in charge of the course, who actually know the stuff already, and who have been able to fit it into a CS degree?

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but to give you an idea of the course, in computer science 1B which I'm doing at the moment, the most complex thing we did was draw a simple 2D "tree" in java using recursion..

Well, trees are useful. Of course, actually drawing them is pretty irrelevant.

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I guess its going too slow for me in a way - and instead of turn up to my lectures I'm teaching myself C++, directX and whatever..

There's a difference between "going too slow for me", and "there's stuff I'd rather be doing". Which is it in your case? [wink]

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I'm actually repeating 1st year this year

And yet, it's going too slow for you? And you're worried about how the math exam is going to go? Is it me, or are these three statements more than a little bit contradictory? [smile]

Well, CS is not just programming. That might be what surprised you. It surprises a lot of people. (It's probably the major reason people drop out of CS).
That doesn't mean it's any less useful though. It's a bit of a roundabout route, but in the end, you become a much better programmer than if you'd just taken the direct route ("I want to learn C++, then DirectX, then make a game")

At least, that's the idea. I know quite a few people on this forum hate and despise CS, and find it completely useless. And it probably varies a lot depending on where you're studying.

But in any case, don't assume that something is uesless just because you can't currently see the point.

If you don't like studying CS, then drop out and do something else. Or maybe learn on your own at home. But don't try to convince yourself that you'd learn nothing by sticking with your study.

Great demos, enthusiasm and perserverance could get you through the door if you're lucky. But getting a degree does not mean you lose the great demos, enthusiasm and perserverance - the degree improves your chances. And always keep in mind that life has a way of taking people in directions they never intended to go. You may find yourself facing a great opportunity one day where that degree will make the difference - perhaps something unrelated to game developement or even computer science. Something you may not see yourself doing now, but which might be attractive in the future. For example, a 4 year degree in any major can get a native English speaker a very well paid job with 4 months+ annual vacation at a university in Korea simply because not enough native speakers with a master's degree are available for hire. An opportunity like that could arise at any time and could lead to even greater things.

Don't sell yourself short just because you aren't thrilled with math. Otherwise you may find yourself regretting it in years to come.

Imagine someone learning to be a carpenter saying, "I want to learn about measuring, hammering and sawing. I don't want to learn about wood, or about structures. They are not relevant."

I was originally planning to study CS, but I, too, was turned off by the ammount of math nessescary. I'm now studying Digital Arts and Experimental Media, which exposes me to things like mechatronics/robotics, 3D modelling, and video editiong, all without a math requirement XD.

I don't know what your school offers, but look into alternate fields of study which you find more interesting.

Computer science is much more than the study of programming. Edsger Dijkstra, a pioneer of the field, once said:

Computer science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes.


Here's the wiki link describing a Computer Science degree.

Hey with relation to people who replied about my "maths worries" etc,

its entirely a motivational issue - ie I didnt turn up to things, rather than an "it's too hard" issue

and I was only referring to computer science subjects when I said "the pace is really too slow" - i've achieved far more outside of uni than in the course itself (programming related anyway)

I guess I would much rather learn the maths when I actually needed it -
i.e. Learn C++/java completely, then learn the theories I need to produce more complex programs.

At the moment its like learning the grammatical structure of a foreign language (ie: maths, design methods, etc..), without having all the necessary words(ie: programming language know-how) to put into a sentence(program) yet.

especially if I had only been doing the programming set in the course!

One more thing. . . trees are useful, if you are taught anything about them apart from how to draw them.

How to draw a tree is not really something I would expect to have payed hundreds of dollars to be taught and waste 6 months of my life on. (we did do other pracs obviously. . but this was the "culmination" of CS1B (a previous 6 months was spend on CS1A. . . dont get me started on that!)

I'd stick with your degree. All that theory does come in use. Furthermore, like Sneftel I've had to use most of the mathematics I've learnt at some point in my career. These days I strongly wish I'd paid more attention in third year maths [smile].

When you write that you want to "learn C++/Java" completely, that's not really what a computer science degree prepares you for. At the end of my Bachelor of Software Engineering degree I was merely competent in C, and only knew a bit of C++, Java, Perl and a few other languages, but the theory I had learnt could be applied to any of them. Once you've learnt the basics of a couple of languages, learning another isn't that hard. Languages come and go, but the theory is more permanent.

And I don't want you to take this the wrong way, but if you were to drop out now and apply for a job you are almost certain to be asked why you quit, and frankly "because I didn't want to learn the maths" isn't going to help win them over [wink]. One of the important things that particular piece of paper shows a potential employer is that you have the perseverence to make it through a three year course of study. Plus, since it's expected to have higher education for work in info tech fields in Australia you'd be putting yourself at a huge disadvantage. You'll be also severely limited any options to change careers at a later stage.

If you are having trouble getting motivated, I'd strongly recommend seeing a course advisor to ask for help. If you like programming it also might be possible to take a research subject in C.S. to work on a small project; they can be a lot of fun too, and will count as credit. It might also be possible to get some extra tutoring in maths (it could just be that your lecturers aren't particularly good teachers).

Best of luck!