The Problems with Designers: "You bastards just don''t get that most people come home and just want to play a game, impose their bosses'' face on the baddies and blow him to smithereens. Jeez, if I actually cared about plot, I''d watch a hollywood flick or read one of those... you know... things that are kept in large buildings... yeah, books! I''d read a book..." I hate to be the first to say (thankfully, I''m probably not) that, unfortunately, game design has not yet reached a level where it can truely be called a literature. For all the talk about non-linearity, morality and consequences, I think that the public just do not come to their PCs with the same mindset as a book, or even a movie (and I''m not talking hollywood here). They''re just not prepared to put in the extra effort of actually -caring-. I saw an interesting lecture the other day on the future of the human brain. The lecturer, the head of Neurology at Cambridge (I think), suggested that the world has more to fear from the Internet and television in terms of cloning than from biological cloning. The gist was that because a large number of neurons (the connections in the brain) were formed after birth through experience, and formed a large part of who we are, the uniform and cliched images from the mass media were stopping people from excercising their own imagination. In effect, because experience is provided to them, they become to lazy to become individual. Not necessarily a new thought, but interesting to see it expressed in such terms. Now that I''ve written all that, I wonder whether it is at all relevant. However, I can''t hardly delete it now can I? To tie it back to the argument that most people do not look at games as being an art, I would quote something I read recently "art does not lie in what the artist chooses to put in, but rather what he chooses to leave out." Frankly, I don''t think the public has gotten past what has been put in to see what has been left out. I hold these ramblings up to your judgement.

Wow, that''s a good point. What you say about people playing games just to have fun is old news. What you say about art is something to think about. I don''t believe your statement regarding the Internet is relevant to this matter, but it is indeed true. I''ve done some reading on this myself.

Anyway, you have to think of game design in terms of genre rather than gaming in general. It''s true that most people just want to waste an hour or two playing games, either on their PC''s or their consoles. That''s why PC renditions of crappy television gameshows become hits.

Then you''ve got the other type of gamer who does not waste 30 or 60 minutes playing a short-sighted game. He wastes five hours playing an in-depth interactive drama. (That''s one way to put it.) You''re not talking about gamers, you''re talking about one specific kind of gamer.

Somebody else can continue here. I think I''ve said enough.

Are you saying you think that the depth should be left out of games just because the majority of the population won''t appreciate it? It sounds to me like you''re advocating lowering our standards for games.

Who cares if the public isn''t interested in caring about the story of the game? Should you leave it out? Why not just make an enjoyable, fun game that actually has a story for those who care? There are some people who do enjoy depth.

I guess what I really want to know is what the hell you''re getting at? Do you have a point?

"I feel sorry for the earth''s population, ''cause so few live in the USA." -Bad Religion
--FenrisD--

Have you played the Longest Journey? I think that comes closer to literature or art than any previous game. You _believe_ in the characters and actually feel for them. That''s something most movies and books can''t even accomplish.
As for computer games turning into art... Well, I read something by someone about artistic games being the future. He predicted artistic games would be made and he compared them to the movie Pi. Can''t say I like that idea a whole lot

-Mumbles

Have you played the Longest Journey? I think that comes closer to literature or art than any previous game. You _believe_ in the characters and actually feel for them. That''s something most movies and books can''t even accomplish.
As for computer games turning into art... Well, I read something by someone about artistic games being the future. He predicted artistic games would be made and he compared them to the movie Pi. Can''t say I like that idea a whole lot

-Mumbles

Game design and plot/writing are not related in any significant way. Thus your whole point is moot, and belongs in the writing forum. Game design is about game rules. Chess for example has a good design but not much plot.

Anonymous is right. This is a game writing/game plot discussion.
Game design is not concerned with plots similar to stories in a book.

aka John M.
Never give up. Never surrender!

I think a big difference between literature and video games are the target audiences. Video games are largely targeted at teenagers, and therefore don''t have too much depth. Then there''s some games like Myst that almost no kids like to play because it requires to much thinking...

Well, this may be a bit off topic, but...
I think if you did a study, you would find that people that read [novella to novel length] books when they were kids are the same type of people who [,if they play games,] play games with great amount of depth, in mechanics, story, or both.

Well, to respond to Galaxy and Anonymous: Game Design was originally distinctly different from plot writing. However, I believe that as the "art-form" develops, Game Design can become more important to the actual plot. It sounds strange and esoteric, I believe, however I think that the Game Design can be so important to the plot because it should affect how the plot is delivered. Essentially, if the suspension of reality effect becomes ever-improved, then the Game Design will become core to that and thus tied into the plot as it will BE the environment in which the player is submerged. At this point, however, technology is still so limited that full-enough suspension of reality is not possible and thus Game Design and Plot are only weakly linked together. It''s something of time I guess.

Charles Galyon