Free help

I understand your point, but how willing are you to hand over cash to a complete stranger for work he/she might never complete?

I never said anything about getting paid in advance. My position with anyone I've done work for is that I get paid once you have the music in hand and are pleased with it. If you don't like it- I don't expect to get paid.

This, to me, seems very fair.

For the most part I agree with everything in this post, but I do think it should probably be covered in an article or FAQ somewhere - if it isn't this is a topic that certainly should be. Something like a 'list of best practices' for recruiting semi-professional help to a project for a minimal expense.

It's common for small indie project to have a 'we'll split profits if we make any' mantra as far as paying for work is concerned, or a 'we're doing it for free' concept. For some individuals, this works. If you're serious about making money though, it's perhaps not the best thing to do, as it's informal to the point of being dangerous, especially when you consider the minefield that IP law can be. I believe that you should either set up with profit in mind, or not - don't give 'maybes'.

My company is coming at this issue from the 'other side' - as an unfunded (other than personal investment) company, we simply can't afford to pay up-front for services, although we recognise that payment must be made. We attempt to achieve this by either offering a set royalty (through our freelance submissions for retail) from sales of the work, or through a consultancy agreement which states the profit share and how (precisely) it is to be calculated from the monthly accounts of the company. These are legally binding agreements (both for us and our freelancers / team members) which cover our collective asses. They're also not cheap, but they are substantially cheaper than the total cost of the work (as calculated by standard salaries and time taken).

For those teams that can't afford the legal work to draft such agreements, informal agreements can work pretty much just as well - something in writing to lend weight to the promises of payment you make, and to make clear (this is the important bit) where both the team's responsibilities and the responsibilities of the team member lie, and who retains ownership of what, and under what circumstances can ownership of the asset by passed on.

For some aspects of development ownership is shaky ground - specifically in coding. Because there may be more than one coder working with the same code 'asset', ownership becomes muddied - it's for this reason that we operate the consultancy agreement, which states the company retains ownership of all created works, in exchange for an amount of money per hour spent working on it.

I guess what I'm trying to chip in here is that organisation on this side (yeah I know it's boring management stuff) is just as important as the structure of your codebase or the format you need your assets delivered in, and should be considered when attempting to recruit anybody.

Perhaps this should go in Business of Game Development, but it's particularly appropriate to a lot of threads in here. Meh. Let a mod decide.

When you can only pay such a small amount it's much better NOT to pay people. The reason is that when working on a huge game project that takes months, years to complete, paying such a small pittance is insulting to some of the more experienced artists. If they do agree they won't stick with your team for very long, because they'll jump ship the moment a better deal comes around.

It is much better to have them on your team working for experience or the fun of making a game (hobby). That way they stick with you because they have a genuine interest in the game and helping you make it.

[Edited by - afenix05 on April 24, 2006 11:58:23 AM]

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Original post by afenix05 When you can only pay such a small amount it's much better NOT to pay people. The reason is that when working on a huge game project that takes months, years to complete, paying such a small pittance is insulting to some of the more experienced artists. If they do agree they won't stick with your team for very long, because they'll jump ship the moment a better deal comes around. It is much better to have them on your team working for experience or the fun of making a game (hobby). That way they stick with you because they have a genuine interest in the game and helping you make it.

See, I actually disagree with you on this approach. Sure, 50 dollars isn't a huge amount of money and someone probably deserves more- but I don't think it is an insult. For example, which is MORE of an insult:

Getting paid a small amount of money for your work (with the understanding that the company can not afford to pay any more)

or

Not getting paid at all for the work (regardless if the company can pay or not)

I'd go for the second option any day. If you have more experience, then the odds are you are not going to take on a job that is either little or no pay. I have been involved with seven projects now, some paying others not. For those non-paying jobs, the companies and I have figured out other things that can compensate me. Those things can include:

*Quotes for websites or press kits
*Resume credit
*Letters of recommendation, or references to other companies in industry
*Other services (one company specializes with web design and offered to redo my website for free)
*royalties
*others

For those just starting out in the industry, many vets say do not work for free. For example, I read Game Audio by Aarron Marks and he strongly discourages working for free.

If you're demanding to be treated like a paid professional, perhaps you should start acting like one begin sending out resumes to companies that are garunteed to pay you?

Surfing these forums expecting a paid job sounds like a waste of time to me.

For our company we tend to go the pay route, even if we can't afford much right now. We set up work on a contract basis, and often pay 50% when the work is half done and 50% when its finished. That way both parties can see how things are halfway through and both know they are getting something. This is more true when we do work with people we don't have a previous relationship with.

So far this seems to work out much better for us than trying to find volunteers. And, since each contract is for a specified amount of work, the person contracted can feel free to move on to another project whenever they want, instead of feeling locked into a project that can't afford to pay much.

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Original post by Zenphobia If you're demanding to be treated like a paid professional, perhaps you should start acting like one begin sending out resumes to companies that are garunteed to pay you? Surfing these forums expecting a paid job sounds like a waste of time to me.

First off, no need for the rude tone in your e-mail.

Secondly, I do send out resumes to companies of all makes and models. I'm using these forums as another way to contact and network with more people that I might normally not get to.

Finally, you missed the entire point of my post: You say surfing forums expecting a paid job sounds like a waste of time- I agree!! That is what I was talking about, it shouldn't be that way. Looking for work from the mega companies is hard- there are so many people involved and interested and for the most part- there are few musicians hired on at the companies. So forums and other websites are sometimes needed to find other work. My point was why do so many of these companies wanting help on projects not want to pay anything?

I think I've beat the horse to death long enough...he is really starting to look gross. Just making sure everyone understands my point. :)

PS- I also posted it here so people seeking help on games could debate about it and we could potentially change the general ideology.

Most groups would not be against the idea of giving the artist credit, royalties, references, etc. And if it is a small project and you can pay, then go for it (I know I would).

But for a large project (MMO, FPS, etc.) with crazy amount of work the defining point will be whether they enjoy working on your project and not the $50 dollars.

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Original post by nsmadsen Quote: Original post by Zenphobia If you're demanding to be treated like a paid professional, perhaps you should start acting like one begin sending out resumes to companies that are garunteed to pay you? Surfing these forums expecting a paid job sounds like a waste of time to me. First off, no need for the rude tone in your e-mail. Secondly, I do send out resumes to companies of all makes and models. I'm using these forums as another way to contact and network with more people that I might normally not get to. Finally, you missed the entire point of my post: You say surfing forums expecting a paid job sounds like a waste of time- I agree!! That is what I was talking about, it shouldn't be that way. Looking for work from the mega companies is hard- there are so many people involved and interested and for the most part- there are few musicians hired on at the companies. So forums and other websites are sometimes needed to find other work. My point was why do so many of these companies wanting help on projects not want to pay anything? I think I've beat the horse to death long enough...he is really starting to look gross. Just making sure everyone understands my point. :) PS- I also posted it here so people seeking help on games could debate about it and we could potentially change the general ideology.

The thing is, based on my experiences here (and I've been lurking a very long time), the goal almost every member has is to create a game, whether solo or with a team. You, being a composer, are just another member of the team. If no one is else is getting paid, or expects to be paid, why should you be paid?

And about the "companies" wanting help, a company is a business. Just because someone calls themselves a video game production company does not mean they are a business, more than likely they thought up a cool team name that they like to associate themselves with.

Agreed afenix05! The $50 was just a figure...and a very low one at that! But I see your point.

Nsmadsen is 100% right. Ask any composer trying to make it. We get boned in the asshole. What's the only jobs not available in the game industry?! Composer, and writer. Although writer is a bit different, in that its usually a director or a team of 'idea-men' and designers, but composer? Every game needs music, just like every game needs graphic art. Graphic artists are needed in spades and our schools are pumping them out like nothing. There are few composer's working in the game industry and those who want to break in are out of luck because it has to be THE tightest job in the entirety of a project or company. As for free music, go to www.sectionz.com or some underground place where we musicians work like slaves making free commercial quality music and use that in your games you pissant little bastards LOL. But if you want original music JUST for your game, be willing to pay royaltees at the least. Making music is a lot of hard work, and good music can make or break a game. Often it is how well the art and music work together to create an atmosphere that pushes a game over the top with incredibleness! I've seen fantastic design/programming fall on its ass because the poor game had shitty art or shitty music. Think of all the best movies and games you love, like FF7 or Fightclub or whatever it is you like, I garruntee a HUGE part of why you loved it was because the art, music, and story/gameplay all came together in a gorgeous whole, and without the music element it is really hard to get a good atmosphere or impact goin' on in your games. So try to appreciate the most underappreciated, intensely vital, and hardest damned job to get in the industry! :p Love ya guys, ttys

You do realize, right, that the majority of "companies" posting here on gamedev aren't actually companies, but groups of you people just making a hobby game? When you were 18 and making stuff did you have $50 to throw around for game assets? The heart of the problem is that you are looking for compensation in a hobby world. Sure, everyone thinks their game will sell but in reality these are "just for learning" projects.

Basically, don't come crying to a hobby community about pay. 99% of the people here are just doing this as an extra-curricular activity.

-me

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Composer, and writer. Although writer is a bit different, in that its usually a director or a team of 'idea-men' and designers, but composer?

Writing good dialogue or a good story is just as difficult as composing music and sadly, many people don't attach much value to a writer being a part of the team (Oh if I could count how many times bad dialogue ruined a game).

It's an artform in itself.

I understand the desire (and need) to be paid. But coming to a forum composed mostly of beginners will never be a good way to make even a little bit of pocket change.

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Original post by afenix05But for a large project (MMO, FPS, etc.) with crazy amount of work the defining point will be whether they enjoy working on your project and not the $50 dollars.

$50 is not much, but it is enough to buy a new book, that everyone on the gamedev.net forums recomends to read. ;)

I don't know Palidine, it might seem that way and for the most part its probably right, but I've seen a few independant games do alright. I've even been a part of some. The best example I can think of though is Alien Hominid. However, games made by indies can be advertised at places like download.com and ask for donations, and even though you don't get practically anything you might get a tiny some. Just saying, "If I make anything off this game, I will pay you " "% is a good gesture and your team will appreciate it. Even if that " "% ends up being 50cents, it will still make all the difference in the world--don't beleive me? Try it. Most artists/composers if you offer to pay royaltees on a volunteer project will say, "Nah, its cool" but you WILL sound more professional and they will feel appreciated. Its no big deal! :)

OKAY. TIme for me to jump in. I don't want to come under fire, but I do think that some things need to be said,

I have been reading this, and have decided to post my two cents.

I have landed gigs that pay well, but in the same light composers are getting shafted all the time.

I see this a lot.

1. Cattle Calls - Having 20 composers compete for one spot, and then having and expecting each one to write a track. The problem with this is, you are'nt l;ooking for a composer to write the soundtrack, you are looking for the track that a composer has already written.

2. Why should you expect 30 minutes of music before the game even has a playable engine. If you canntot hear your music in the engine, you shouldn't write it. (For free of course. If you are being paid, all of these rules are different)

3.Music creation takes as much time as antything else. I currently have written two tracks for a vidoe game. the gig was landed at Gamedev.net. They paid for me to hire an renown European Orchestra to record the tracks. I spent over 60 hours preparing these two tracks.

4. Stop having eight composer per project if your project does not need eight, or at least. If you want serious music for your game, treat the composer (s) as if he were a human. I had a friend who was in a situation like this. They asked him to be a composer, and he ended up being 3 composer's bitches. This looks unprofessional.

5. Protools isn't the end-all. I have lost jobs before because I don't own a Protools rig (One of the 30,000$ ones). This project's estimated budget was lower that the cost of one of those set-ups.

The list could go on. These are just things that I have experienced which make the entire composing aspect of games hard to work with.

As for You Nmadsen, I understand where you are coming from. I was involved in a project a long time ago where I was told that it was non-paying until the game makes money. This was a lie. He KNEW he could get the music for free. He knew that he could have a cattle call.

No one in life can or should expect another to work 40-50 hours on a few tracks of music, or 100+ hours of music for a soundtrack, without ANY form of compensation.

In the same light, I have done projects for free though, mostly out of love of what I do. I have worked on MODS before, because I like to. So not everyone needs to be paid.

Games typically have numerous programmers, artists, writers, but indie games usually only have one audio guy. The market is saturated to hell with audio guys who are dying to get a gig. I have worked on projects where they started by saying, "We have nothing to pay", to having them pay me something. You must simply prove that your assests are more valuable than those elsewhere. Sure, I may not be able to write as good as so and so, BUT I can write nearly as good, and charge 10% of what they do.

People who are serious about making money with their games, should treat their employees seriously as well.

Both sides have great points,

Sean Beeson

Hmm...not sure what to add to this topic.

In the beginning...God created the Earth.

sorry

In the beginning, I would get plenty of offers to work for free. The more I contribute to these and other forums, the more projects I complete, the more people I meet, the less these offers came. In fact they've turned into "how much do you charge for x?" PM's and emails. Whee! (On top of that, my website is all messed up right now)

We all know the artists should get paid. I don't think anyone here doubts the legitimacy of their work as to assume they shouldn't.

That being said, there are tons of audio cats out here all with different levels of skill. There are plenty out there who can do exactly what I do who get far less (or none) of the work than I do.

Like what someone said before in this post...they don't know you! (and I'm speaking generically to all composers/sound designers here) They know your work because you posted nice samples on your page. They know what you look like because there's a spiffy pic of you in front of some gear you may or may not own. But do they know the real you?

Do you come off as someone they would like on their team? Do you appear to have more to contribute than what's in your resume? Does it seem like a good idea to hire you over anyone else DOING THE SAME THING YOU DO?!?

Or do you sound like a commercial?

People are wary of commercials, they've grown to not trust them. They change the channel or leave when they come on. If you approach people like an advertisement with a shiny price tag you will get treated as such.

I haven't been doing this long, and I'm not EXTREMELY successful quite yet, but this has worked for me. I'd hope it was somewhat universal. Trust and respect.

Though I don't come to gamedev (or other forums I frequent) looking to get rich or make a career working on indie projects, nor should anyone else. I come because I am fascinated by game development and the people who make games. This is the groundfloor! Learn as much as you can, have fun, and make your way upwards!

You can shine no matter what you're made of!
For every raindrop that falls a flower grows!
Never leave a man in a canoe unconscious!
Don't whiz on the electric fence!

I'm also available for childrens' parties.

Tony

HAHAHAHA!!!

Always good for a great laugh Tony! Thanks for your thoughts!

Nathan