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Working for Free (round 2)

Started by nsmadsen Jun 24, 2006 at 9:29 AM 84 replies 10.8k views

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nsmadsen

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nsmadsen

Jun 24, 2006 at 9:29 AM

I'm still running into this idea that musicians and artists are supposed to work for free. I honestly do not understand this. I'm using this forum and topic to try and educate people. Musicians make a living with their music. It is their product. Not everyone can make good music- so it’s a craft that is needed and vital to most media. I'd really rather get paid something for my work, even if it’s just 200 bucks for the entire project. I'm trying to make a living at this and so if I constantly take on free projects, I'll never get there. And yes, I already know that I'm probably going to get slammed left and right from people claiming I'm just greedy- read the last paragraph. I understand young projects often do not have much money- but think of it this way. Young businesses have to pay for all of their resources regardless of their age or budget. If you need a building- you're paying for that. If you need paper- you're paying for that. Other companies don't care if you're young or not. They're only concerned with selling their product. If you tried to ask them if they'd give it to you free- they'll either kick you out or laugh you out the front door. I don't want to be greedy and I also don't want to work for free continually. Since I have industry experience with some pretty big companies- I feel like I shouldn't have to. This is especially true when a project wants exclusive rights to my music. For those of you out there that do not know what that means here is a definition: Having exclusive rights to a piece of music means that piece can never be sold to any other project. Sometimes its only project in the same industry (i.e. video game vs. video game) other contracts may mean any other project period (i.e. video game vs. anything)!! I know I've talked about this before with this forum- but I'm bringing it up because I still feel strongly about this and am encountering it on an alarming pace. One excuse I heard quite often was "Well, we're hobbyist!! We shouldn't have to pay you!" My response: Well, I'm not a hobbyist, I'm a professional. I had a friend that loved to make model airplanes that actually flew. This was his hobby, and he had to pay for every single kit that he purchased. Little boys like to collect baseball cards. This was a great example because they actually are young and are hobbyists! They also have to pay for each and every card in their collection- unless they steal (which is illegal anyway). The audacity of this argument is that the crew (or lead programmer) is only taking into account that THEY'RE hobbyists. They're forgetting that the artists or musicians may NOT be. Every project I've run into wants samples of my work before allowing me to join- and rightfully so. They want to make sure what I produce doesn't sound like total crap. If you want quality, you often have to pay for it. I feel like some of these companies would go up to John Williams (one of the most famous film composers today) and ask him to do it for free because they're hobbyists. Well...he isn't. Bottom line- you're forgetting that even as hobbyists, you have to pay for your resources! Another excuse I've heard before is: "Its only music". Really... okay. You write something and see how good it sounds. Also, many people do not realize the time it takes to make good music. For example, I recently did an orchestration for a choir company that was 2'45" long. That 2'45" took me eight hours to input, orchestrate, mix and polish!!! Think about the average video game soundtrack- many have over 20 songs. That can add up to a good deal of time and energy!! The final excuse I'll post today is: “You’re just greedy; you're not in it for the art!" This one makes me laugh every time because I know the people that say it would jump at an opportunity to sell their game. They eventually want to make money off of their games, even if it starts solely as a hobby. The sad part is while they'd love to make money off of the game, without any kind of contract in place, legally they'd never have to pay their art and music each a penny!! I'm not just in this for the game- but I want to be compensated for my product: music. If I was greedy, I'll be charging $80,000 to do all of the music and SFX for your game. (Believe it or not, that is actually low to standard in the game industry). What I think you should do is talk with your team. Find out what kind of price you could pay. You'd have to do that if your crew needed to buy a new server or some other tool that was needed. Plus, we can talk about it more. I probably came off super pissy or commercial. While I am frustrated by this, I'm not solely out there for the money. I want to make great games. I want my music to be the perfect fit! I'm a really nice guy and very easy to work with, I'm just asking that your fellow artists (both musicians and artists alike) should be respected for the valuable content they bring to the table. Even after a while- resume credit only doesn't mean as much as being able to pay the bills! Musicians and Artists- I'd love to hear your feedback on this topic! Do you agree with me! Programmers- Please, Please, Please read this and don't just write me off as another musician demanding money! Look into what I'm saying. Moderators- What are your thoughts? I'm sure you see project after project on here only wanting to take on free help. Thanks! Nathan Madsen www.madsenstudios.com [Edited by - nsmadsen on June 24, 2006 10:40:47 AM]

robert_p

Jun 24, 2006 at 9:37 AM

Help wanted is mostly for free projects, I've helped some people with programming from this forum and never asked for or received money. On the front page of this site there are job listing, I commonly see jobs for musicians(all paying).

But if you aren't getting paid I wouldn't just sign over the rights to the music.

Will Roget

Jun 24, 2006 at 10:32 AM

Ditto - there's no reason to give anyone exclusive rights until you're getting paid a full professional rate, which is usually like $500-1000 per composed minute. You can even shop your music around a lot and get more credits without technically doing anything; a piece I wrote for one film got used as the ending theme for another, that's a free credit on my resume with absolutely no effort on my part. You'll still own everything you do until you sign a contract that relinquishes the rights completely.

That being said.... I think we as composers should try our best to have contracts for everything we do, which stipulate things such as 1) single-use license (they can only use the music in the one and only one production that you specified), 2) composer retains the rights, 3) nominal fees if applicable. I'd try to get at least nominal fee for everything you do, it's tougher to do in games than films b/c indie game people aren't used to moving money around, but it can be and has been done. You can charge like $100 for a whole soundtrack for a (supposedly) $0-budget game, and they'll feel like they got a lot of bang for the buck... it's not as much as the music is "worth", but it's at least something, and it subconsciously makes you seem like you're worth more than the thousands of folks who offer to do it for free. That and you can filter out cheapskates easily - if they really cared about the music, they wouldn't mind this.

More importantly though, I think it's important to consider who you're working for. It might be kind of upsetting to see so much competition among talented people willing to work for free, but first of all, they're often working for people who aren't really getting paid themselves. Composers are often seen as being somehow on the "outside" of the core team, and so they figure, if we're not gonna pay for graphics, why should we pay for music? Aside from this, I think it's useful to think of indie projects not in terms of how much money you can make off of it, but rather how good a game will it be, how much will I learn from this experience, am I a good fit for them and are they a good fit for me? I've done paid projects that I wish I never bothered with (@$%#$y directors, outrageous nextday deadlines, crappy stylistic restraints, lousy production), and unpaid/unfinished projects that were among my best musical experiences in life. So it's really more about who you're doing it for than what you're doing it for. :P

I feel like getting "real" money off of it is a later step that has more to do with networking/pestering/blind luck.... I personally won't worry too much about that step until I've done so many dozens of free projects that there isn't much left to learn from it. But once you already have an extensive credits list with maybe a few nice "hooks" (like indie games featured in popular magazines, ones that win awards at festivals, flattering quotes from Aaron Marks, etc. ;)) then it's probably just time to start shelling out $$$ for professional demo materials and sending stuff around, going to game conferences, moving to LA and schmoozing like crazy. :)

Pro games (ie. ones that'll give you full cash) are just a different field, with different people and a different environment/strategy. Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about indie people wanting free music; a pro-level company probably won't even talk to a composer who offers to work for free.

Well I hope this helps... I know how frustrating it can be that we put so much time (and money!!!) into this and don't seem to be getting a dime out of it, but in time, water seeks its own level. You're definitely not "greedy" for wanting to be compensated, it's just a function of who you're working for. Best of luck!

Wilbert Roget, II
Composer
RogetMusic.com

Cerasti

Jun 24, 2006 at 10:52 AM

I partly agree with you. Some people don't put any time into writing their posts, and they usually end up like "hi im new to progarmign nad im maeking a gaem. if yuo artist or musci guy maill me @ UltraDragon@hotmail.com cuz i ned gfx and sfx". These people don't deserve to get art/music for free. But there are other members who actually spend time on their design document, look for grammar errors in their posts and know what they're doing. The last example isn't necessary a professional, I've seen hobbyists who does that. If I was an artist I wouldn't be upset if I wasn't paid for working with a team like that.

I understand that composing music isn't easy, it is very time consuming and royalties shouldn't be given away for free. But if you have a hobbyist project where you need a composer, two modellers, a graphic artist and a writer, the budget just isn't big enough. If everyone would want 200$ it would be 1000$, and 1200$ if you needed an extra programmer. That's a lot of money for a hobbyist to pay. Take the example with the model plane, if he bought one plane every month, and every plane was 50$, he wouldn't have much of a problem financing it. But if he would pay 1200$ one month, it would be way out of his league.
Just my two cents...

- Martin

hplus0603

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hplus0603

Jun 24, 2006 at 11:05 AM

In a free project, it works like so:

Everybody gets together, pool resources, and out comes a game that everyone can point at and say "I did <this part>." That's all the compensation everybody gets, in 99.9% of the cases.

That doesn't work, if someone says "well, _I_ want money, even though you don't." Then you're looking at the wrong project. If you want money, go look in the job ads, or contractors-wanted posts.

I think the question that really begs to be asked is: Why are there seemingly so many programmers wanting to work for free; some of them quite good; but there are seemingly so few artists who would do the same thing? Finding good artists is often the biggest stumbling block for many promising gaming projects.

Mega Chicken FF

Jun 24, 2006 at 11:32 AM

I like where you are getting at Nsmadsen:
- Its true, there are many topics, all asking (sometimes begging) for people to drop what they are doing and join a Team that is 'aspiring to make the next great game' Unfortunately the harsh reality is that not many of them will even go far, recruiting wise, or just in the plain end, crash. So why should you waste your talent, such as composing, or programming, to a group, in the end, gives no result?
- To be lucky that a professional music composer, who dedicates his/her time on a peice, joins you, is swell. (And not just to say composers dedicate their time, but just anyone in a game project)

Its a cruel world, the gaming industry, especially for indie teams.

I do wish good luck on your quest to find a suitable paying job
In the meantime, check out www.project4hire.com, a place where you can
bid on games that need a series of people, maybe a composer, like you.

Till Then,
- Ivan

nsmadsen

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nsmadsen

Jun 24, 2006 at 11:45 AM

This is why I love these forums- for the most part people come together and share ideas in a respectful manner. Thanks to those that responded!

Cerasti- you make a very valid point- financing all of the members to get paid at once would be killer. I think this is where a milestone approach for payment would work better. Also I think its completely fair that how much someone is paid depends on how much work goes into the project. Programmers can spend a ton more time than I do on a project- they should get more money than me because of it. This can be hard to police if people are not working in one locale though.

hplus0603- I agree many of these projects are free. I honestly do not know why so many programmers work for free. I have several friends that are great programmers and they expect some kind of compensation for their effort. I'm learning C++ now and have so much respect for what programmers do!! Its really tough! I also understand what you're saying- if I'm wanting payment but no one else on the crew does- is that fair? Well, if they want my music that is what they have to do. Many things in business are not fair- its just business. I just want some compensation for my work, thats all.

Mega Chicken FF- you make an excellent point. There are some posts on here that look like they were written by a drunk monkey blindfolded. :) LOL I'll check out that site you mentioned, thanks!

I thought I'd link some of my music so you can listen to what I can do. Hope you enjoy!
Orchestral Sample

Jazz Sample

Techno Sample

Nathan Madsen
www.madsenstudios.com

jbadams

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jbadams

Jun 24, 2006 at 12:31 PM

Firstly, thanks to everyone for keeping the tone of discussion friendly. I know some people feel very strongly one way or another about the matter at hand and it's good to see that you're able to have a mature discussion without anything getting out of hand.

Now, on to the actual topic. Yes, personally I feel that you do have a good point. Asset production - both visual and audio - is a difficult and time consuming task that generally requires someone skilled and at least reasonably dedicated.

While there are projects out there that genuinely can't afford to offer any payment other than experience and mention in the project credits, if you're running these projects you should consider the work that goes in to these tasks and lower your expectations accordingly; don't ask for that exclusive licence you might have preferred, accept that someone might only be able to contribute a few pieces, etc. Basically, make some concessions for the fact that you're asking a skilled individual to donate some of thier time to you at no cost, and don't expect too much from them in this situation.

If you can pay something, offer to do so. This counts especially for those projects hoping to eventually go commercial in any capacity whether that be retail, shareware, subscription based or some other model. Even for a simple $50 or $100 out of a very small budget you'll generate a lot of good will, and may be able to attract help of higher quality or be able to get those exclusive rights most of you would prefer to have on your art and audio assets.

If you can't pay everyone at once, do it over time; if your artists can vouch for the fact that you've given them a small payment now and you can let a composer know when you'll be able to offer them a small payment you'll probably be able to work something out. Always keep your word and make good on any such offers. If you can offer someone $10 now and $50 a month or so down the track, that's still a lot better than nothing - still certainly not the actual value of high quality assets, but it really shows your appreciation and gives the artist/composer something for thier work.

If you've actually got a budget and can afford to pay values that are actually more appropriate for the work done, I'd highly encourage you to do so rather than holding out in the hopes of getting the work done for free. No offence meant to those who do work for free, many of whom are very good if not near-professional, but you really do tend to get what you pay for. The artists and composers out there looking for money instead of free projects are generally those with more solid experience under thier belts; they've probably worked on a number of projects in the past, may have invested in some more expensive software and/or other equipment, and are certainly more likely to remain dedicated to a project and put in a full effort if they're actually getting some good money for it. If you're actually planning on going commercial with the end product in some way think of it as an investment; by spending some extra cash now, you'll produce a much better end-product and be able to generate more sales. You'll also be able to ask for exclusive rights to assets without having to feel any guilt, as the artist or composer will have been compensated for thier time.

There are other things you can do to make asset producers more comfortable with you, especially if you're not able to pay or can only manage very small amounts, but personally I think you'll find the good will generated makes it worth while even for those who can afford to pay properly for the services offered.
* If you're aiming to go commercial with your product, offer some amount of royalties - this is not a replacement for payment, as despite all best intentions it will quite possibly never actually result in payment - it's nice for those in the team to be able to feel they'll get thier share.
* Have an email address you're happy for people to give to others in future when looking to join future projects, and look out for emails about thier participation in your project; your good word about the work they've done could help them get future jobs.
* Put thier name in the credits. Some people like to also include a url. Bit of a no-brainer really, but some people don't think of it.
* Recommend them to others when you get the opportunity.

Oh, and if you're someone who produces assets of any sort and don't want to work for free, then yes - be sure to also check other places. The majority of projects in this forum will generally all not offer compensation, and I don't really ever see that changing. It's both a strength and a weakness of the forum we've set up here, and you'll have to work within the conditions that creates; it can be hard to find an offer of paying work, and it can be hard to find a good asset-producer who'll work for free. [wink]

JohnnyCasil

Jun 24, 2006 at 12:38 PM

Quote:
Original post by nsmadsen
I honestly do not know why so many programmers work for free. I have several friends that are great programmers and they expect some kind of compensation for their effort. I'm learning C++ now and have so much respect for what programmers do!! Its really tough!

You have to understand though, some of us just don't expect to be paid. Being a computer science major in the future I do want to be paid for whatever job I end up doing. As far as my hobbyist game development, I don't expect to get paid, it is a hobby, nothing more nothing less. I do it for fun, and that is all the payment I need.

I can understand where you are coming from expecting to be paid. If you want to be paid for your work, there is nothing wrong with that, but the help wanted forum isn't the best place to look for a job, as stated before.

jroadrage

Jun 24, 2006 at 2:26 PM

There are alot of really good comments on this topic, I thought that I would weigh in with my 2 cents.

I am a composer/producer who graduated from Berklee a couple of years ago, and I mostly work on realatively small projects, shorts, student films, etc. It never ceases to amaze me how often I hear of directors/producers saying things like "What we want is absolute top quality, professionally produced music for our 7 minute short but unfortunately, we can't offer any pay, oh yeah, and we need it done by this weekend." I think with many of these less experienced directors, there is almost an expectation that because the labor market is so overcrowded and filled with people trying to get a foot in the door, that finding well produced music should be fairly easy. I am sure that there are exceptions, but I think most are generally disappointed with the music that they receive with this approach and than they tend to learn their lesson.

In one of my last classes at Berklee, this issue came up whena student asked "how many jobs should I do for free?"
The teacher, who is a very accomplished studio owner/writer/producer, said "none" and then qualified his response by adding that in order to work for free, there must be several factors involved in the project including, networking prospects, valuable experience, exposure, etc., and even then he advised against it.

I found this out the hard way when I moved out to LA and I was just desperate to work so I took a job for no money or even the prospect of money on this awful piece of shit short film. What was supposed to take a week turned into 2, then 3. I was doing rewrite after rewrite, I had gotten roped into doing some post work and then by the end of the project ,this director was actually using my main DAW machine to do editing in Final Cut because I had a better machine than she did. In the end, I just walked away, I did what I could but explained that another opportunity came up and I couldn't devote any more time to this project.

What I realized after all of this, was that by doing the project for absolutely no money, I had failed to place a value on my time, efforts and eventually, my studio. If I would have even charged $50 a day, I am sure that she would have thought twice about wasting so much of my time, but because I wasn't, 1 more day turned into 2 more days without any skin off of her back.

That being said, I am now trying to get involved in composing/producing for video games, and despite my education and experience, I don't have any expectation of being payed for my first several projects, that is just the nature of the industry. This time around I will certainly be more cautious if I do see the opportunity to become involved with a small/no budget project.

I suppose what it boils down to is that as long as a project can be mutually beneficial for BOTH parties without anyone getting taken advantage of, there is no harm in working for free, or spec, or back-end, but both sides need to be very careful and realistic about both the quality of the music and the professionalism of the project.

nsmadsen

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nsmadsen

Jun 24, 2006 at 2:45 PM

jroadrage- couldn't have said it better!!! Best of luck to you friend. I guess I'm at the point where I'm taking paid jobs since I already have industry experience.

dmail- you missed the points I made in my post. I suggest you read what jroadrage, Kazgoroth and the others had to say as well. Also, I never said that designers, programmers and artists put in less (or more) time than I do. I was simply stating how much time I (or composers in general) put in. I stated this because I've been told several times "well, its only making a song" which suggests that there are people out there that have the stance that it isn't hard to put something musical together. With your attitude, I guess you do everything for free? So if I needed you to mow my lawn and I told you that I'll give you resume credit for that instead of paying you, does that mean you're okay with it? I doubt it. My point is if you are offering a service which is valuable then WHY NOT get some kinda compensation for it? Otherwise, you're shortchanging yourself! Also, about your comment about not applying for jobs that are non-paying: besides whats posted in the commercial games section, how many paying jobs have you seen in the help wanted forum? I've seen very few. I've already applied to the commercial openings and now I'm looking for current work in this forum.

tstrimp

205

tstrimp

Jun 24, 2006 at 3:17 PM

Quote:
Original post by dmail
I will now fade into the background, due to gamedev's really stupid user rating scheme.

Little rate++ boost for you.

I agree completely with dmail. The majority of the projects in the forum would not be able to afford to pay you anything. Therefore, it stands to reason that you should not try to use the help wanted forum as a place to find a paying job. As it has been mentioned before, there is a jobs section on GDNet and there are other places that are more suited to finding paid work. To come on to GDNet to complain about how no one wants to pay you when the majority of people working on these kind projects aren't getting paid and can't afford to pay anyone is rediculous. You're looking in the wrong place for work.

nsmadsen

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nsmadsen

Jun 24, 2006 at 3:35 PM

So because you are indie or doing this as a hobby you shouldn't have to pay for anything? Do you have some kinda ID that you flash around the computer stores that show you are either an indie or hobbyist and therefore everything is free?? Man...I need to get one of those cards! LOL :) Is this what you are saying? Because its coming off as such.

Both you(tstrimp) and dmail seem to think I'm making a mistake looking around in the open source community for composing work. While dmail did mention a good thought process:

"Q Do I want paying for the project?
A Well payment is not the be all and end all, what could I gain from this experience?
Q Is the project paying?
A See above question.
Q Am I going to do this project?
A It depends on who I will be working with, what they are doing, plus many more elements."

what about those of us that already have credits on our resume. I've worked with ten different video game projects. Some of these have been huge and some have been very small. Some have paid others (actually most) haven't. I've spent my time working on these projects for free to get industry experience, to polish my skills and learn more about my craft. The problem is I don't want to spend the rest of my life doing projects for free because someone is indie or not a hugh corporation. I want to eventually make it to where I can do this full time instead of as a part time career. I'm never going to get there by never earning a cent.

My question to both of you, since I've paid my dues and have resume credit, where should I look for work? (Especially since I'm also looking for work in the commercial realm as well). Also, why can't these projects pay? You mean to tell me among a 5 or 7 person crew they can't scrounge up 50 bucks to pay me for my time and effort. Fifty bucks, while very little, is still MUCH better than nothing.

And I've already said this before, but just because everyone else chooses to work for free doesn't mean I have to. Maybe they're not wanting to make a career out of this- but just wanna have fun. God bless em!! :) Maybe they feel like they don't have the skill level or know how to charge money. Keep working on it and you'll get there. I have the skill level and know how to produce great music and sound effects. I've also invested a ton of my own money into software and hardware to allow me to make great music and SFX. (Notice I didn't demand to get those items free because I was an indie or a young business! ;) ) Finally, every author that I've read about composing music for films and video games, every professor I've had a class with and every professional composer I speak to tells me NOT to work for free. Are they all money grabbers too? Should they all stop charging?

nsmadsen

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nsmadsen

Jun 24, 2006 at 3:43 PM

Thanks by the way for listening to my music dmail!! :)

tstrimp

205

tstrimp

Jun 24, 2006 at 3:44 PM

Quote:
Original post by nsmadsen
So because you are indie or doing this as a hobby you shouldn't have to pay for anything? Do you have some kinda ID that you flash around the computer stores that show you are either an indie or hobbyist and therefore everything is free?? Man...I need to get one of those cards! LOL :) Is this what you are saying? Because its coming off as such.

It really depends on what the hobbiest is able/willing to pay to see their project come through. For the vast majority of people on the help wanted forums that number is $0.00. Is it possible for them to complete a project witha $0.00 budget? Assuming they already have a computer to work with then yes it is. Is it likely? No, probably not. Are you wrong for wanting money? No, of course not. I'm just saying you're in the wrong place to make a profit.

Quote:
what about those of us that already have credits on our resume. I've worked with ten different video game projects. Some of these have been huge and some have been very small. Some have paid others (actually most) haven't. I've spent my time working on these projects for free to get industry experience, to polish my skills and learn more about my craft. The problem is I don't want to spend the rest of my life doing projects for free because someone is indie or not a hugh corporation. I want to eventually make it to where I can do this full time instead of as a part time career. I'm never going to get there by never earning a cent.

So since you have worked on 10 projects every hobbiest programming is supposed to be throwing money at you? It doesn't matter if you composed music for every AAA game title since 2000. You are not going to get much, if any, money off of projects posted in the help wanted forum.

Quote:
My question to both of you, since I've paid my dues and have resume credit, where should I look for work? (Especially since I'm also looking for work in the commercial realm as well). Also, why can't these projects pay? You mean to tell me among a 5 or 7 person crew they can't scrounge up 50 bucks to pay me for my time and effort. Fifty bucks, while very little, is still MUCH better than nothing.

They probably can, but why should they? If they think they can get it done for free then let them try. They certainly don't owe you anything, no matter how many dues you have paid. As far as where to find work, to be perfectly honest, that is your problem. It's sounding like you're trying to make the GDNet community responsible for your livelihood. We owe you nothing. If there isn't anyone here that wants to pay then you really should try to market yourself elsewhere.

Quote:
And I've already said this before, but just because everyone else chooses to work for free doesn't mean I have to.

You're absolutely right. But you certainly aren't entitled to paying jobs from the help wanted forum.

Quote:
I have the skill level and know how to produce great music and sound effects. I've also invested a ton of my own money into software and hardware to allow me to make great music and SFX. (Notice I didn't demand to get those items free because I was an indie or a young business! ;) ) Finally, every author that I've read about composing music for films and video games, every professor I've had a class with and every professional composer I speak to tells me NOT to work for free. Are they all money grabbers too? Should they all stop charging?

You're completely missing the point. There is a place for voluntary work and a place for contract work. So you seem to think you're entitled to contract work. Okay, thats fine! It is your choice after all. But to go to a community where people are trying to find like minded individuals to help with their project for free, and then expecting them to suddenly pay you because you decided you are worth it is stupid and pointless. No one is saying you shouldn't charge for your work. You just shouldn't expect people who want volunteers to pay for you just because you have the experience.

Arglebargle

Jun 24, 2006 at 3:46 PM

Interesting thread. I don't think it's bad or unreasonable for an amateur team to expect free music. After all, the artists, programmers, and everyone else are working for free. Sometimes a team truly cannot afford to pay for music, you know? But on the other hand, sometimes you get what you pay for (not always though). And composers are certainly entitled to be paid, if that's what they want.

But, I'm not so sure everyone should be charging for their stuff. I mean, you better have pretty freakin' awesome music if yer going to make people pay for it. I am a composer, and I have thought a lot about trying to get into paid VG scoring. It's something I'm definitely interesting in. But I have no experience at all. No credentials. I have been involved in a number of freeware projects and all of them have failed. I dunno if I feel right about trying to charge; don't know if I'm "there yet".

Not really responding to anyone in particular with this post, just a bit of rambling.

nsmadsen

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nsmadsen

Jun 24, 2006 at 3:55 PM

tstrimp- I don't feel like Gamedev.net is responsible for my livihood at all. And you're correct, you do not owe me anything and I owe you nothing as well.

To be honest, when looking around on this forum for projects I'm not expecting to make a ton of money. I'm looking for temporary work while I slowly advance towards my goal. I'd like to at least get paid 50 bucks for my trouble and product along the way. If there is an amazing project that I really want to be a part of (and there have been several) then I'll take it on for free. That project however, much be something really special- not something that is just thrown together by three college kids that would rather watch Reno 911....which is a really good show actually.

:)

I feel like I'm getting really bad PR because of this thread though- my rating has dropped and the community probably just thinks I'm out for each and every dollar I can get. Which couldn't be further from the truth. My whole point in starting this thread was to ask this simple question: why should every job be for free?

Perhaps I should have started with that approach.

nsmadsen

Author Mod

868

nsmadsen

Jun 24, 2006 at 4:00 PM

Wow...wait wait wait. tstrimp how am I forcing people to hire me? I'm not. I'm not forcing anyone to do anything. I'm simply wanting to have a discussion. I present my views, you present yours...other people weigh in. Thats it.

I think you're thinking I'm doing stuff I'm not.

Sorry for the misunderstanding!

tstrimp

205

tstrimp

Jun 24, 2006 at 4:01 PM

Quote:
Original post by nsmadsen
I'd like to at least get paid 50 bucks for my trouble and product along the way. If there is an amazing project that I really want to be a part of (and there have been several) then I'll take it on for free. That project however, much be something really special.

That is completely understandable. You just can't expect everyone who is looking for free work to want to hire you!

Quote:
I feel like I'm getting really bad PR because of this thread though- my rating has dropped and the community probably just thinks I'm out for each and every dollar I can get. Which couldn't be further from the truth. My whole point in starting this thread was to ask this simple question: why should every job be for free?

Perhaps I should have started with that approach.

It shouldn't and no one has said it should. But as I've said before you can't expect people who are looking for free help to pay you simply because you have paid your dues.

tstrimp

205

tstrimp

Jun 24, 2006 at 4:04 PM

Quote:
Original post by nsmadsen
Wow...wait wait wait. tstrimp how am I forcing people to hire me? I'm not. I'm not forcing anyone to do anything. I'm simply wanting to have a discussion. I present my views, you present yours...other people weigh in. Thats it.

I think you're thinking I'm doing stuff I'm not.

Sorry for the misunderstanding!

No, you just aren't targeting the right audience. I said before there is a place for free work and a place for contract work. You want contract work. Help wanted forum wants free work. You're looking in the wrong place for contract work!

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