Stealing Words

Another high-profile figure, Tony Snow, used the same phrase and was lampooned rather than lambasted. As Jon Stewart said in regard to the resulting tempest-in-a-teapot, "Clearly I'm going to have to Jew down my expectations. I'd hate to expose any chinks in his armor, especially since his reputation has been spic and span. Seriously, nigga please."

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Original post by kSquared Another high-profile figure, Tony Snow, used the same phrase and was lampooned rather than lambasted. As Jon Stewart said in regard to the resulting tempest-in-a-teapot, "Clearly I'm going to have to Jew down my expectations. I'd hate to expose any chinks in his armor, especially since his reputation has been spic and span. Seriously, nigga please."

[lol][lol][lol]

You just reminded me why I love Jon Stewart, and almost convinced me to pay for Comedy Central.

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Original post by ChurchSkiz From this article: Speech First it was niggardly, then Eeny Meeny Miny Moe, now this?? Since when do black people get the power to veto words that people use? I'm getting pissed about this. It seems like every term I use now I have to double-check with the African-American Lexicon of Racial Hatred. What if someone starts calling black people "Compilers" can I no longer use the word without being a bigot? This whole thing reminds me of Clerks 2......I'm taking back Tar Baby!

I am afraid you're being too naive. Words have meaning, and we should be aware of that. The words existed and were dealing harm before you were born, and just because you dont see the relation doesnt mean you shouldn't respect that they have a meaning that perhaps you cannot relate to.

Granted, a few times this rightful sensitivity has been abused, especially in the case of "niggardly". That word has an unfortunate similarity to another, but they are completely unrealted. And "eenie meeny miny moe" is still regarded by etymologists as completely unrealted to racism.

Unfortunately terms like "tar baby" and other similar terms in the United States are racially charged. And sometimes people feel since theyve never heard it used in this negative way that this alternate use doesnt exist. But trust me it does.

And why must you feel you need to take back ownership of these words? You already have some degree of ownershop -- I mean, you can read "To kill a Mockingbird" and you can read the n-word as its written. But you sure cant use it any other situation other than to discuss these charged words themslves. You sure as hell can use it to address someone or punctuate your sentences. So why do you feel you need to completely own them so badly?

And I think if you were paying attention in the clerks clip you would have noticed that they are trying to establish you cannot just use these types of words and ignore their meaning -- even if youre genuinely unaware.

If you still have trouble relating, imagine someone saying the most horrid words imaginable to a family member of yours. Then afterwords they say they simply didn't mean it. That doesnt make words less hurtful.

[Edited by - fpsgamer on July 31, 2006 3:32:14 PM]

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Original post by fpsgamer Quote: Original post by ChurchSkiz From this article: Speech First it was niggardly, then Eeny Meeny Miny Moe, now this?? Since when do black people get the power to veto words that people use? I'm getting pissed about this. It seems like every term I use now I have to double-check with the African-American Lexicon of Racial Hatred. What if someone starts calling black people "Compilers" can I no longer use the word without being a bigot? This whole thing reminds me of Clerks 2......I'm taking back Tar Baby! I am afraid you're being too naive. Words have meaning, and we should be aware of that. The words existed before you were born, and just because you dont see the relation doesnt mean you shouldn't respect that they were here before you. A few times this rightful sensitivity has been abused, especially in the case of "niggardly". That word has an unfortunate similarity to another, but they are completely unrealted. And "eenie meeny miny moe" is still regarded by etymologists as completely unrealted to racism. Unfortunately terms like "tar baby" in the United States are racially charged. And why must you feel you need to take back ownership of these words? You already have some degree of ownershop -- i mean, you can real "To kill a mocking bird". But you sure cant use it any other situation other than to discuss these charged words themslves. So why do you feel you need to completely own them so badly? And I think if you were paying attention in the clerks clip you would have noticed that they are trying to establish you cannot just use these types of words and ignore the meaning.

I'm mad because words that once held no charged meaning, are now suddenly taboo. What happens if I make a mistake and say a word of phrase that was ok and then suddenly someone calls me a racist because it was somehow perverted?

Why do we give the racists the benefit of the doubt by corrupting the word? Tar baby was a perfectly acceptable term for a sticky situation, and just because some losers wanted to use it, now all of a sudden people that do are bigots.

This isn't a term that was invented for the sole purpose of racism, it was a word, like any other word or phrase, that was used pervertedly, and now is banned from use. It's like banning steak knives because someone has used them to kill someone. Words have a meaning, this one's meaning was defined, and now a certain group of people redefine that meaning and we can't do or say anything about it. What if tomorrow they want to pick a different word, a word you use often and like. At what point does it stop?

And it doesn't even correct the behavior. A racist is a racist whether he says N* or not. Stopping the word doesn't stop the hate. Likewise, using the word doesn't propagate it unless it is used negatively.

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Original post by ChurchSkiz I'm mad because words that once held no charged meaning, are now suddenly taboo. What happens if I make a mistake and say a word of phrase that was ok and then suddenly someone calls me a racist because it was somehow perverted? And it doesn't even correct the behavior. A racist is a racist whether he says N* or not. Stopping the word doesn't stop the hate. Likewise, using the word doesn't propagate it unless it is used negatively.

Thats the nature of language! To you it held no negative conntation and was an innocent term. But to thoes from the south, they would regard it as a highly charged negative word. You have to pay respect to the fact that people have had that term hurled at them and people they know -- it is by no means made up. So when people watching heard the term used by a public official they heard a man using an insulting phrase casually propogating an image of subjugation.

The apology was simply a way of saying "I didn't mean it that way", and there is no reason to get in a fuss that he had to apologize. It was simply cearing up the air.

Imagine you go away to some fictional far off island we can call "LaLa", there the people use a word that means "I wish to kill your family and eat their internal organs" which unfotunately sounds alot like the English "Hello". After you say "Hello" you sure as hell better apologize to let them know things are cool.

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Original post by ChurchSkiz And it doesn't even correct the behavior. A racist is a racist whether he says N* or not. Stopping the word doesn't stop the hate. Likewise, using the word doesn't propagate it unless it is used negatively.

Of course that doesnt stop the hate, but it sure as hell doesnt mean people want to be called that! From your point of view its still okay to take offense to words like "Fuck you" which are relatively inoccuous compared to the N*word.

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Original post by fpsgamer Quote: Original post by ChurchSkiz I'm mad because words that once held no charged meaning, are now suddenly taboo. What happens if I make a mistake and say a word of phrase that was ok and then suddenly someone calls me a racist because it was somehow perverted? And it doesn't even correct the behavior. A racist is a racist whether he says N* or not. Stopping the word doesn't stop the hate. Likewise, using the word doesn't propagate it unless it is used negatively. Thats the nature of language! To you it held no negative conntation and was an innocent term. But to thoes from the south, they would regard it as a highly charged negative word. You have to pay respect to the fact that people have had that term hurled at them and people they know -- it is by no means made up. So when people watching heard the term used by a public official they heard a man using an insulting phrase casually propogating an image of subjugation. The apology was simply a way of saying "I didn't mean it that way", and there is no reason to get in a fuss that he had to apologize. It was simply cearing up the air.

If that's all that happened it wouldn't be a big deal. Here was the quote from the offended:

"Tar baby is a totally inappropriate phrase in the 21st century," said Larry Jones, a black Republican and civil rights activist. He think he's presidential timber," Jones said. "But all he's shown us is arrogance."

Basically saying, "You can't use this word now, this guy is arrogant for trying to use it." This wasn't even in the south either. It's Iowa for crying out loud.

To clarify ones intention is one thing, to automatically assume negative connotations and imply non-existant bigotry is another.

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Imagine you go away to some fictional far off island we can call "LaLa", there the people use a word that means "I wish to kill your family and eat their internal organs" which unfotunately sounds alot like the English "Hello". After you say "Hello" you sure as hell better apologize to let them know things are cool. Quote:Original post by ChurchSkiz And it doesn't even correct the behavior. A racist is a racist whether he says N* or not. Stopping the word doesn't stop the hate. Likewise, using the word doesn't propagate it unless it is used negatively. Of course that doesnt stop the hate, but it sure as hell doesnt mean people want to be called that! From your point of view its still okay to take offense to words like "Fuck you" which are relatively inoccuous compared to the N*word.

You make two incorrect assumptions, the first is that we are using different languages, the second is taking offense to a word that's only meaning is negative.

We are talking about English, where a word or phrase that has an implicit, implied meaning is suddenly and without notice changed to racially charged. It would be more like if you went up to someone in America, said "Hey", and then you were labelled as a Hate-monger because someone earlier that week used it to start a race riot.

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Original post by fpsgamer And I think if you were paying attention in the clerks clip you would have noticed that they are trying to establish you cannot just use these types of words and ignore their meaning. (emphasis added)

Not knowing what is actually involved in the Clerks clip, I would like to suggest that the statement, "you cannot just use these types of words and ignore their meaning" applies to both sides. In language, context and intention is of utmost importance. If a person's intentions and the context in which they use a word or phrase are clear, then anyone who takes it differently is purposely ignoring the successful attempt at communication, and consciously misinterpretting something. Language is about communication, and I am sure that just about everyone who was offended by the tar-baby comments knew full well what concept was being expressed. That they chose to ignore this obvious meaning strongly suggests to me that they are going out of their way to further some agenda.

I have the same problem with swear words. If I'm talking to my mom and say, "The darn car wouldn't start this morning," she'd have no problem figuring out the message I was trying to convey: The car wouldn't start, and I was frustrated because of it. However, if I said "The damn car wouldn't start this morning," she'd still pick up on the meaning, but would comment on my use of the word "damn". It's irrelevent. Communication is the only reason I was speaking those words to her; if the idea has been communicated, then the use of the string of words was successful.

Now I'm not saying we should all be free to say whatever we want, because if other people get offended it's all their fault for ignoring the intentions of the speaker. The speaker should work to be mindful of others. I know that my mom doesn't like swearing, so I don't do it when talking to her. But I think that the people getting offended shouldn't just depend on everyone else bending to their whims either. Listeners have just as much responsibility to recognize the intended meaning as speakers have a responsibility to not knowingly offend people. But it seems that a lot of groups want all the responsibility to go to the speakers. If we do that, then we essentially get a huge pile of politically correct crap, because anyone is capable of taking just about anything out of context if it suits their agenda. And there most certainly exist plenty of agendas out there.

Can't we all just work together (yeah, asking too much, I know) to improve the quality of our communication? When you speak, try your best to choose your words such that it is easy for your target listeners to figure out what you mean. And when you listen, try your best to figure out what the speaker means, and do not construe it as meaning something else.

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Original post by ChurchSkiz You make two incorrect assumptions, the first is that we are using different languages, the second is taking offense to a word that's only meaning is negative. We are talking about English, where a word or phrase that has an implicit, implied meaning is suddenly and without notice changed to racially charged. It would be more like if you went up to someone in America, said "Hey", and then you were labelled as a Hate-monger because someone earlier that week used it to start a race riot.

You say we are all speaking the same language which is only partially true. Within languages there are divides. Across the united states people use different words to mean different things, but is all considered English. If you expand your scope across the entire British Empire you will see more and more drastic differences in the English we speak.

It just so happens that to some in a certain part of the usa this is and has always been a racially sensitive term.

This kind of situation relies on sensitivity from both sides. Both sides have to understand the others different experiences. I for one am fairly confident that the politician in the story was totally unaware of the other meaning. On the other hand I honestly didnt even know there were even innocent uses of that phrase. See right here is an example of our different view points. But what I did was research it on the net a bit, saw the other meanings, then I understood his viewpoint. And the politician did the same by showing he understood the other viewpoint as well.

Sure I think its silly when words that arent racist are marked as such (ie. niggardly). But when we get into these areas where one party is ignorant or there is a misunderstanding because of different definitions, we should try and not get overly worked up and just discuss it because it was simply a misunderstanding :)

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Original post by fpsgamer This kind of situation relies on sensitivity from both sides. Both sides have to understand the others different experiences. I for one am fairly confident that the politician in the story was totally unaware of the other meaning. Sure I think its silly when words that arent racist are marked as such (ie. niggardly). But when we get into these areas where one party is ignorant or there is a misunderstanding because of different definitions, we should try and not get overly worked up and just discuss it because it was simply a misunderstanding :)

I'll definitely concur with that. But given that, I'd say that Romney was the exemplary character in this situation. Some people got all up in a huff about it, some people got all up in a huff about the people getting all up in a huff, but Romney appears to have acknowledged the alternate meaning, apologized, and probably won't use it again, being one unit more knowledgeable than he was beforehand. That's behavior to commend. (My apologies if there's more to it than that, and he wasn't quite so commendable throughout the whole deal.)

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Original post by fpsgamer [...]If you still have trouble relating, imagine someone saying the most horrid words imaginable to a family member of yours. Then afterwords they say they simply didn't mean it. That doesnt make words less hurtful.

Maybe I'm just odd, but you can walk up to me and use any word you want in a sentence and I won't care about the specific words you use even though I might care about the overal idea you convey.
The closest thing to "the most horrid words imaginable" I can think of is ebonics, which is terrible because it's a system of stupidity that people force on themselves in the name of cultural preservation. I don't find it offensive so much as I find it saddening.
Even if you use some kind of racial slur with malicious intent, the worst that would happen after a single instance would be thoughts questioning your intelligence.

the real question is why do you even want to "steal 'tar baby'"?

or 'porch monkey' or 'nigga' or whatever else. I have yet to hear a word that could be concidered racially charged and thought in a conversation "DAMN, if i could only use THAT word, everyone would understand exactly what I'm trying to say!"

but that's just me I guess.

i should be a millionare then if the white community was just as active at banning these words.

i get offered CRACKERS all the time at resturants, pretty soon im gonna say something

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Original post by wizardpc i should be a millionare then if the white community was just as active at banning these words. i get offered CRACKERS all the time at resturants, pretty soon im gonna say something

that I would pay to see; some white guy honestly flip out because somebody offered him crackers.

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Original post by wizardpc i should be a millionare then if the white community was just as active at banning these words. i get offered CRACKERS all the time at resturants, pretty soon im gonna say something

I was told by several black people that it's not "cracker" but "cracka" because the white man cracked the whip. I'm not sure if that can be proven or disproven. But I still think it would be funny if we could ban the word from use because of it's offensive underlying racism.

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Original post by kryat Quote: Original post by wizardpc i should be a millionare then if the white community was just as active at banning these words. i get offered CRACKERS all the time at resturants, pretty soon im gonna say something that I would pay to see; some white guy honestly flip out because somebody offered him crackers.

Hey! You're 1337! I'd rate you up but it would ruin it. :(

Oh yeah and I agree about cracker thing. White people are way to tolerant of racial slang. IANAD.