Dreams of an MMORPG

how are there so many people like this?! "I'm learning visual basic and want to make an MMORPG." Bro, start out with something little! Like, make an RPG. And then try to extend that to multiplayer.

Better yet, make pong first. Then tetris.

Thanks, but I've already created a few smaller projects and I'm looking to expand a little (or alot). I'm a quick learner and believe with the proper tools I can create a basic Online-Rpg. I have some experience in creating a Network Chat and I am curious just what programs would be necessary to create an MMORPG. I also have some volenteers who have offered their assistance in the Networking and Programming fields. I also was curious, what programs would be best for model creating/editing.

A few games created over the course of a few days?

Man, you're not making complex enough games then to even consider an MMO :P

What you need to do is just first of all, stop using those silly "instant game" programs. Drop Visual Basic and start learning C++ hardcore (Visual Basic is just for basic stuff like the name implies, not really intensive games). Then, get Visual Studio C++ Express Edition (it's free) and start buildilng games from scratch.

Start with pong, then tetris, then like breakout or something and just keep working up...

That will take you at least a few months more than likely to make the transition.

Thank you Iced_Eagle, I will download the program (a compiler maybe?) and begin working on that. Also, the Visual Basic is a class im taking, and im breezing through it. (I learned most of it around the 5th grade)
Additionally the games I have created are mostly like Mario Brothers, or Sonic.

Actualy, if your learning Visual Basic .NET, you should be able to (somewhat easily) migrate to C# which is a completely fine language for creating even the most complicated of games. Alot of the flack associated with VB comes from VB6 and below, just so you know, similar to how people still believe that the whole of java is interpreted thus slow (which hasnt been true since the hotspot compiler) (Although I personaly wouldent touch VB with a 10 foot poll because of the syntax alone)

I started with C++, been working with that for 9 years. I started working with C# for my job about 6 months back, and I can whip out simple games in a day, and complex games and such rather quickly. There are some things that are easier in C++ of course, data casting & metaprogramming capabilities come to mind, but outside of that , C# is a VERY proficient language. In any case with .NET though, make sure you understand PINVOKE if you wish to make use of public libraries, it can be a lifesaver.

EDIT: C# and VB.NET have similar speeds, which are easily compareable to C++ for the majority of things. Unless your pushing graphic prowless, you should be able to make due with .NET alone. If you are trying to push the system, I would recommend using a 3rd party engine that is written in unmanaged code, and using that from within C#. Simple, Efficient, Fun.

Any suggestions on a third party program to use? The graphics I plan to incorperate are somewhere between Runescape/WoW (World of Warcraft) but leaning more towards World of Warcraft. For those of you who have played Knight Online, they would be similar to that.

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Original post by Herio-san Any suggestions on a third party program to use? The graphics I plan to incorperate are somewhere between Runescape/WoW (World of Warcraft) but leaning more towards World of Warcraft. For those of you who have played Knight Online, they would be similar to that.

Do you have the resources to make these graphics? Like, say, an artist or twenty?

Stay simple for your first online game. Top down, 2D, limited player count. Once you get the hang of that, expand to a larger environment/more complex mechanics. Then tackle 3D. One step at a time :)

Good luck!

I do actually have a small team of artists; I have a concept artist, and I have 2 people who would be prepared to learn any program I throw at them. Additionally I am capable of learning how to use yet another 3D program. I was just wondering if anyone had a suggestion on a program that would be best for compleating the task. I have run Catia and I have run CAD. I have also run Truspace, Gamespace Light and a few other 3D rendering programs. (I also have tried Blender, it was a little complicated and it didnt work out for me) Any suggestions of a good program will be appreciated.

First, drop the MMO part. Start by making a simple RPG. If you succeed in this, congratulations, you've got most of the game client finished. Then make it multiplayer, with a simple client/server model that supports maybe 4 players. If you get that working too, then it's finally time to look seriously at what kinds of programming and design issues are specific to MMORPGs. You'll understand them much better after you've created a simple game first. If you're just starting out programming, this process should take a few months unless you have massive amounts of free time and no life ;-)

Your choice of tools really depends on your budget and what kind of renderer you're using. I would strongly recommend against learning C++ or DirectX for a beginner. There are much easier, less frustrating ways to work these days. I would even recommend against using 3D at all. As someone who has been writing code for ten years, I was able to achieve amazing results in just a few days with PyGame. On the other hand, several weeks into learning OGRE, and I'm barely scratching the surface -- and I have a rather strong math background.

In conclusion: PyGame PyGame PyGame. It's free, it uses an increasingly popular OO language that you don't have to compile, and it's got everything you need (graphics, input, sound) in one package. You might want to read this article and play the game. It's surprisingly fun for an ugly, bug-ridden, tiny game.

Once you've got a simple 2D RPG with placeholder graphics running in PyGame, you might eventually think about graduating to PyOgre. If you've designed it right, you should be able to keep most of your game logic code. The learning curve for working in 3D is still enormous, but it's easier than C++. And if you do decide to move to C++ (or C#), the OGRE API is exactly the same.

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Original post by Herio-san Like any overly ambitious game creator I am wanting to make an MMORPG. However, I am relatively new to making games. I have a few, simple games I have created over the course of a few days, but nothing really special.

Let's do a quick estimate. Ok, so you have created a few simple game in a few days. Now, content-wise and programming-wise, how much more complex is a MMORPG than these simple games you have created? 1000 times? 2000 times? If it takes you a few days to make these simple games, then wouldn't it take a several thousand days to make a MMORPG? That's a lot of years. Do you really want to spend that many years working on a single game?

And what about the quality? I bet your simple games are pretty crude, but of course it would only take a few days to give them some polish. Now, multiply that by 1000 or 2000, and you will be spending several more years just polishing your game. Is it really worth it?

get blender. www.blender.org. Enjoy. And good luck. Do me a favor and start a journal on this. I want to see your, um, progress

Hello.

Don't give up your Dream, but make it a little less costly. And remeber the others here, it will be an enourmus task to build such a game.

When you realy want to make a MassiveMultiplayerOnlineRolePlayingGame take the hint, that you must buy or rent an complete Hosting-Center for it. Such Games normaly are running on Clusters of PC's that togther manage the Rollplaying World. No stand allone PC is capable of running a World like of WorldOfWarcraft or Everquest for such massive ammounts of Online Gamers.

When you leave out the Massive and make an MultiplayerOnlineRolleplaying Game you have a chance to make this game homebrewed. The ammount of Players that can play together on a single PC depends hardly on the connetion of the Server to the Internet. My PC for example is connected to the Net wia DSL, with an upload Datarate at about 15KB per Second and a download rate round about 120KB per Second. This was the main bottlenek for designing my own Multiplayer-Online-Game. I estimate that my Server can handle up to 32 connections of 32 playing charakters when it's ready to be run. But this will take a huge ammount of optimisation on this type of conenction. Nothing that's easy to be done.

As it shines through above, i'm designing my own Online-Roleplaying-Game. So i can give you some hint's on how much of a codeing it will be to write this type of Game. I dreamed of writing an rolleplaying Game since the times of Dungeon-Master ( an realy old RPG-Game on an Amiga-PC ). So i allways wanntet to make all parts of the game by myself. Here are some Stats of my Engine, so you can imaginize the ammount of work that lures at you.

Curently i'm writing on the main Engine and an Editor for the World. My goal is to make also an Server and a Client for it. Some Sever/Client tests are prommising, but far from beeing completed.

Here are some Stats of my Engine and Editor:

Engine:
- Is written in C++ with portability in Mind.
- Uses OpenGL for the Rendering with support of Shaders
- Hides all systemspezific Details, so it's easy to addopt an Application to new Renderingdevices and OS'es. ( Runs on Linux and Windows )
- Supports also: Soundeffekts, Musiktraks, UserIO, Server and Client handling, persistend World loading / saveing, Handling of Gameobjekts, Playerstats, NPC's and other nessesary Rolleplaying-Game-Logic.
- Arround 80% compledet.
- over 160 Unique Classes
- Around 1,1 MB of Sourcecode
- Time to write: 2 Years in my sparetime

Editor:
- Based on the Engine, it designed to Edit all aspekts of the persistend World.
- It dosn't support Meshediting or Texturing as all Modells are importet from a profession 3D-Tool. ( Maxxon 3D , Milkshape and Blender )
- Arround 40% completed.
- 10 Classes ( many more to come )
- Around 300KB of Sourcecode

This isn't my first attempt on designing an MORPG, my first prototypes are more that 10 years old....

You can spare some time when you take one of those engines like OGRE, CrytsalSpace or Irrlicht. But those arent Gameengines, they all have no handling of the rolleplaying and charakter Parts, that you will need to write an rolleplaying Game.

Greetings
Janaha

P.s.
Some Pics and the (realys ugly) Sourecode of the first Prototype can be found at: http://lapwing.games-net.de
Sorry they are a little old, i didn't have the Time to post some Updates, as all my spare times flows directly into Engine and Editor this time...

I hate to repeat what everybody else said but that's the way it is.

As much as that link has the right idea, I think the message could be hit home more firmly with a huge list of all the video/audio/network/data structure/algorithm/program design requirements for even the simplest MMORPG. Perhaps we should throw together a Wiki for the purpose of scaring newbies off the trail [rolleyes].

Regards
Admiral

Thanks Janaha, the information you have provided will be most helpful. However, as many have stated it wont be an easy task for me to complete. Honestly I have already looked at the "long term" effects and the time it will take to manage such a project. I'd just like to state that the game is being produced in my free time and that im not expecting a "major income," nor am I expecting to complete the task within a year. (that would be foolish to believe) Im just making a game to see if I can. Sure it can be done, look around at the other games that have been made. Its just going to take time and lots of effort, which I am willing to put in.
I would greatly appreciate it if everyone would stop trying to defer me from my current decision. I began working on the game about a year ago, I have all the mechanics of the game figured out, the player interface, the game layout, everything. Additionally I have written a storyline (multiple ones), created many "in game" icons using Adobe Photoshop and much of the user interface. Im to the point now where I need to begin setting up the game and coding it.
I have "psudocode" plans written as well outlining what will be needed to create the game. This "psudocode" contains MANY variables necessary for user play. I honestly dont believe the game will be a "difficult" process rather than just time consuming. Naturally thats until I begin running into santax errors or other problems :P. However, im making it my goal to finish this project.
For those of you who have supported me, I am very grateful and I offer my many th anks. For those of you who dont think it can be done, just wait and see... Who knows, maybe your right... But either way, im going to persue this game until it either prospers or fails.

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No stand allone PC is capable of running a World like of WorldOfWarcraft or Everquest for such massive ammounts of Online Gamers.

Sorry if this is a bit off topic, but it does relate, if you look into private WoW servers there are hundereds, with the vast majority being run from someones desktop PC. I used to play on a server where the guy used his PC while we played. You could notice when he started playing cause everything would slowdown a little bit(didnt play there long).
I know of many decent servers run from one single dedicated PC, and they routinely host up to and over a hundered players. While I am unsure how they do it, I do know it works. You dont have to be Blizzard to run a MMORPG, you just need huge amount of memory, and a beefy proccessor.

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Original post by Graiskye I know of many decent servers run from one single dedicated PC, and they routinely host up to and over a hundered players. While I am unsure how they do it, I do know it works.

I wouldn't say 100 players quite fits the definition of "massive". I also really doubt that a private WoW server recreates the entire gameworld. Scatter those 100 players across the world and suddenly you need to do thousands of AI routines and other calculations in real-time. There's an excellent reason why Blizzard and every other company running an MMORPG spends lots of money on multiple game servers AND database servers per game world: it's the only way to do it.

On the other hand -- no offense intended to anyone -- if you're worrying about server architecture and hosting before you even have a basic prototype of your hobbyist MMORPG, you're concerned about all the wrong things. There have been seventy billion independent MMORPG projects launched since Ultima Online and EverQuest got popular, many of them involving large teams of volunteers, and not one of them has gotten to that point. This isn't to say that none ever will; I have high hopes for Project Wish a few more years down the road.

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Original post by Herio-san Sure it can be done, look around at the other games that have been made.

I'm trying hard to think of good one-man projects that have been produced in recent years. Mount&Blade is close to fitting the definition.

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Im to the point now where I need to begin setting up the game and coding it.

I think we're just encouraging you to be realistic. It sounds like you have no software engineering experience and not much programming experience either. Take a good look at the size of the programming team of any commercial MMORPG. You're talking at least five people, most of whom have CS degrees and/or years of experience in game development. They're putting in 40-60 hour weeks for two years or more. That doesn't include artists or designers.

The point is...start small. So many new hobbyist game developers shoot for the moon and get discouraged after they realize what a massive undertaking they've started, and all their work goes to waste. I'd repeat my suggestion of starting with a small single-player 2D RPG. Pick a few features from your design and ignore the rest. Develop it a bit, and share a demo! Then expand it to a simple multiplayer model, and so on. Each of these things takes a LOT of time, and if you try to do it all at once, it's very likely that nothing will get finished.

Good luck on your project. As another poster mentioned, it would be great to see your progress, so if you do start a journal, please let me know. I would be very interested in reading it.

regards,
D

BTW, there are a few MMORPG post-mortems on Gamasutra:
Asheron's Call
Asheron's Call 2 Tools
Dark Age of Camelot

They're fascinating reads, and should give you a good flavor of what MMO development involves. Good luck!