Skip to main content
GameDev.net gamedev.net
🔒 Locked

Ghosts in the Machine

Started by LessBread Dec 31, 2006 at 2:52 PM 54 replies 9.7k views
Original Post
LessBread
LessBread
The NYT published a very interesting op-ed yesterday regarding the meaning of an announcement earlier this year by Swiss scientists that electrical stimulation of the brain can create the sensation of a "shadow person" [1]. Here are some snips from the op-ed: Ghosts in the Machine
Quote:
THE human brain is, in surprising part, an appliance powered by electricity. It constantly generates about 12 watts of energy, enough to keep a flashlight glowing. It works by sending out electrical impulses — bursts of power running along the cellular wires of the nervous system — to stimulate muscles into motion or thought into being. ... So when scientists wrote in a recent issue of the journal Nature that they could induce phantom effects — the sensation of being haunted by a shadowy figure — by stimulating the brain with electricity, it made perfect neurological sense. One could even argue that the existence of such sensations explains away the so-called supernatural. In fact, as The Times reported, the researchers promptly concluded that ghosts are mere “bodily delusions,” electrical misfirings and nothing more. The report does look like a kind of proof — albeit very small proof, as this was a study of two people — if one happens already to believe that ghosts are no more than biological quirks. But what’s fascinating is that it can also look like proof that ghosts are real entities, to those inclined to believe as much. And so the findings also present a case study in two very different perspectives. ... The theories developed by Lodge and his colleagues dovetail rather neatly with the electricity-produced hauntings that Olaf Blanke, a Swiss neuroscientist, reports in Nature. For example, he used an implanted electrode to send a current into a region of the brain called the angular gyrus. The test was focused on language processing. But as a side effect, one of the test subjects nervously reported sensing another person in bed with her, silent and shadowy. Her creepy companion came and went with the ebb and flow of current. It would be compelling — and more convincing — if the same result could be exhibited in a few more subjects. But Dr. Blanke believes that even this one subject’s experience serves as an example of how we may mistake errant signals in the brain for something more. Humans tend, he points out, to seek explanation, to impose meaning on events that may have none. The pure rationalists among us suggest that our need to add meaning to a basic, biological existence easily accounts for the way we organize religions and find evidence of otherworldly powers in the stuff of everyday life. The nonpurists suggest a different conclusion: willful scientific blindness. And there’s no reason Dr. Blanke’s study can’t support their theories of the paranormal. Perhaps his experimental electric current simply mimics the work of an equally powerful spirit. Much of the psychical research done today applies similar principles: brain-imaging machines highlight parts of the brain that respond to psychic phenomena, while other devices are used to search for infrared radiation or increased electrical activity in haunted houses. ... ... And how often, James wondered rhetorically, had such efforts stopped people from seeing ghosts and believing in supernatural powers? Because in the end, of course, the conclusion has nothing to do with science at all and everything to do with how one sees the world. I suspect that we’ll dwell forever in the haunted landscape of our beliefs. To many people it’s a world more interesting — bigger, stranger, more mysterious — than the one offered by science. Why choose instead to be creatures of chemical impulse and electrical twitch? We would rather gamble on even a tiny, electrical spark of a chance that we are something more.
Here's a link to Blanke's report: Induction of an illusory shadow person. And here's more information on the angular gyrus. And here are a few links to Blanke's related research into "Out of Body" experience: [2], [3], [4], [5]. Does Blanke's research mark the beginning of a conclusive end to the belief in ghosts or will our need to add meaning to unexplained phenomena perpetuate the notion? If it really boils down to "how one sees the world", what are the prospects for maintaining a mystical view of existence in light of the findings of this kind of materialist science?
"I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes." - the Laughing Man
Nytegard
Nytegard
Quote:
Original post by LessBread
Does Blanke's research mark the beginning of a conclusive end to the belief in ghosts or will our need to add meaning to unexplained phenomena perpetuate the notion? If it really boils down to "how one sees the world", what are the prospects for maintaining a mystical view of existence in light of the findings of this kind of materialist science?


No, it doesn't mark the beginning of a conclusive end. Why? Because imho, people will believe what they want to believe, science or no science. While some people may be effected, there will always be those who will cling to the supernatural. Besides, who's to say that this is the only explanation for ghosts?
LessBread
LessBread
Whether it's the only explanation for ghosts remains to be seen, but if ghosts can be dismissed as manifestations of errant electrical impulses in the brain... maintaining such beliefs would make as much sense as maintaining the belief that Zeus and Thor have something to do with lightning and thunder. I find that this part of the brain is involved with processes related to language and cognition very interesting given the primacy of language in consciousness, culture and spirituality.
"I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes." - the Laughing Man
DakeDesu
DakeDesu
Uh, last I checked:
shadow person != ghost

Ghost tends to be an ethreal shell of a person who has left their physical body.
A Shadow Person is a more recent phenominom of a rather evil group of entities that seem to want to kill humankind. Check out some of the occult around Sudden Unexplained Death Syndrome.
intrest86
intrest86
If instad another completenotion of a person (sight, sound, touch, etc), would it disprove other people existing? Of course not. You are basically generating thoughts by directly manipulating the brain. Therefore, any thought can be reproduced. Do you want to prove that any thought is false?
Turring Machines are better than C++ any day ^_~
LessBread
LessBread
Quote:
Original post by DakeDesu
Ghost tends to be an ethreal shell of a person who has left their physical body.


Really? Show me.

Quote:
Original post by DakeDesu
A Shadow Person is a more recent phenominom of a rather evil group of entities that seem to want to kill humankind. Check out some of the occult around Sudden Unexplained Death Syndrome.


har har, you funny... [headshake]

Quote:
Original post by intrest86
Do you want to prove that any thought is false?


No, but that's not what this is about.
"I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes." - the Laughing Man
intrest86
intrest86
Quote:
Original post by LessBread
Quote:
Original post by intrest86
Do you want to prove that any thought is false?


No, but that's not what this is about.

I see a study showing it is possible to recreate a thought. I then see the claim that this proves that the thought can never apply to reality. I see nothing that distinguishes this process from applying to any thought. So what is this about?

If I can apply an electrical stimulus to make you feel loved, does that mean love is false? What about pain?
Turring Machines are better than C++ any day ^_~
AnonymousPosterChild
AnonymousPosterChild
Quote:
Original post by DakeDesu
Uh, last I checked:
shadow person != ghost

Ghost tends to be an ethreal shell of a person who has left their physical body.
A Shadow Person is a more recent phenominom of a rather evil group of entities that seem to want to kill humankind. Check out some of the occult around Sudden Unexplained Death Syndrome.


GTFO
With love, AnonymousPosterChild
DakeDesu
DakeDesu
Quote:
Original post by LessBread
Quote:
Original post by DakeDesu
Ghost tends to be an ethreal shell of a person who has left their physical body.
Really? Show me.


Uh... how?

Quote:
Original post by LessBread
Quote:
Original post by DakeDesu
A Shadow Person is a more recent phenominom of a rather evil group of entities that seem to want to kill humankind. Check out some of the occult around Sudden Unexplained Death Syndrome.
har har, you funny... [headshake]


Actually how the Shadow Person is related to SUDS, as a lot of people, before dying of SUDS have explain experiences where they would have dreams where a Shadow Person, or in cases a Demon of some sort (thus ending up with the two linked), sitting on their chest, not allowing them to breathe.

Coast to Coast AM (a show normally filled with crap, but sometimes there are diamonds in the roughage) will sometimes talk about shadow people.

Quote:
Original post by AnonymousPosterChild
Quote:
Original post by DakeDesu
Uh, last I checked:
shadow person != ghost

Ghost tends to be an ethreal shell of a person who has left their physical body.
A Shadow Person is a more recent phenominom of a rather evil group of entities that seem to want to kill humankind. Check out some of the occult around Sudden Unexplained Death Syndrome.


GTFO


GB/2/b/
Nytegard
Nytegard
Quote:
Original post by LessBread
Whether it's the only explanation for ghosts remains to be seen, but if ghosts can be dismissed as manifestations of errant electrical impulses in the brain... maintaining such beliefs would make as much sense as maintaining the belief that Zeus and Thor have something to do with lightning and thunder. I find that this part of the brain is involved with processes related to language and cognition very interesting given the primacy of language in consciousness, culture and spirituality.


Well, with the news that a parasite can make women sexy and men dumb along with this, it's more proof that the human condition and thoughts can be manipulated and controlled.

I guess I worry about this from an ethical standpoint. Sure, we disprove ghosts. But at the same time, now you allow for more further study on the claim of ridding humanity of psychological problems with a hidden benefit to powerful entities that allow rewiring of brains. Maybe they can't control thoughts, but if you can remove shadow entities, what's to stop them from creating a shadow entity? What's to stop a Matrix?
LessBread
LessBread
Quote:
Original post by intrest86
I then see the claim that this proves that the thought can never apply to reality.


Where did you see that? I don't think such a claim has been made. These findings don't prove anything like that but they do open up to the possibility of making such claims.

Quote:
Original post by intrest86
I see nothing that distinguishes this process from applying to any thought.


Nothing? That they didn't stimulate the thought that 2+2=4 doesn't constitute a distinction for you? Or are you claiming that if they can stimulate the sensation of a presence, then someday they will be capable of stimulating the sensation of performing a mathematical calculation? or of inhaling the aroma fresh baked bread? or of something else?

Quote:
Original post by intrest86
So what is this about?


It's about furthering our understanding of human consciousness.

Quote:
Original post by intrest86
If I can apply an electrical stimulus to make you feel loved, does that mean love is false? What about pain?


The question of whether that situation would mean love is false is best left to the poets. If an electrical stimulus can be applied to make a person feel loved, then the love they were feeling as a result of such stimulus would be false but the impacts of those feelings could still be beneficial just as the converse situation of generating pain could be detrimental. Such technology could make for a very wicked implement of torture.

"I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes." - the Laughing Man
owl
owl
Quote:
Original post by Nytegard
What's to stop a Matrix?


We don't need a technological scaffolding to live in a matrix. You're immerse in the matrix you parents, your teachers and your police imposed onto you. And so do I.
[size="2"]I like the Walrus best.
DakeDesu
DakeDesu
Quote:
Original post by LessBread
Quote:
Original post by intrest86
If I can apply an electrical stimulus to make you feel loved, does that mean love is false? What about pain?
The question of whether that situation would mean love is false is best left to the poets. If an electrical stimulus can be applied to make a person feel loved, then the love they were feeling as a result of such stimulus would be false but the impacts of those feelings could still be beneficial just as the converse situation of generating pain could be detrimental. Such technology could make for a very wicked implement of torture.


This brings questions of a portion of the brain known as "the God Spot", which is nicely described in Ray Kurzweil's Age of Spiritual Machines.

I personally believe (get your "Your Opinion is Wrong" flags out), that while we can fake certain concepts, we can, through hard work and determination, get those concepts in a noncounterfeit way.

Just because you can falsify a god by hitting the God Spot of the brain, does not mean there are not Lords or Ladies of the universe who are not falsified via applying pressure to the God Spot.

Though, after LessBread's later posts in this thread, I am somewhat confused at the point he is making. Lessbread, do you want to help us out of this confusion?
joanusdmentia
joanusdmentia
I think the important point here that people are missing is that you can't observe a system from within that system, you can make educated guesses that have yet to be disproven but you can't prove anything. Is that person standing in front of you real? There's absolutely no way of proving that (s)he is real. Secondly to say that this study disproves ghosts you would have to first make the assumption that ghosts can't perform the same manipulations, and since that assumption cannot be verified any attempt to disprove ghosts is nullified.

Either you choose to believe in the supernatural or you choose not to, give up attempting to disprove it as the only way you can do so is to assume it doesn't exist in the first place. Circular argument anyone?
"Voilà! In view, a humble vaudevillian veteran, cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of Fate. This visage, no mere veneer of vanity, is a vestige of the vox populi, now vacant, vanished. However, this valorous visitation of a bygone vexation stands vivified, and has vowed to vanquish these venal and virulent vermin vanguarding vice and vouchsafing the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition. The nly verdict is vengeance; a vendett o
DakeDesu
DakeDesu
Quote:
Original post by joanusdmentia
I think the important point here that people are missing is that you can't observe a system from within that system, you can make educated guesses that have yet to be disproven but you can't prove anything. Is that person standing in front of you real? There's absolutely no way of proving that (s)he is real. Secondly to say that this study disproves ghosts you would have to first make the assumption that ghosts can't perform the same manipulations, and since that assumption cannot be verified any attempt to disprove ghosts is nullified.

Either you choose to believe in the supernatural or you choose not to, give up attempting to disprove it as the only way you can do so is to assume it doesn't exist in the first place. Circular argument anyone?


I'll have to say, I completely agree on this portion of the argument.

However, I wouldn't say you "can't" observer a system from within a system. I would, however, say it is ill advised to do so. As what you might see, may, or may not, be infact the truth, though in some cases the best thing you can do is have the blind leading the blind.

Just to start another thread of discussion, can anybody here follow the logic, "just because it didn't happen doesn't mean you don't remember it". I will further extend that "logic" to the idea that even though something may or may not really have happened it does in fact influence how we act upon things. Myself, I've had a lot of things happen to me, that many people claimed never happened. I have memories that have never occured. Others have memories of me, that I cannot remember occuring. Now, why would the ones I don't remember affect me?

I personally think it is pointless to say, "it didn't happen", or "it is all in your head", unless you can make a solution to reverse the incidents that "didn't happen" so the people they affect, do not feel as though they were affected. Or for the incidents that were "all in the head" some method of removing the incidents from their head.

It is all well to say "it didn't happen" but what is to say that because "it didn't happen" it doesn't affect the person "it didn't happen" too.

Again, I will state that saying something is "all in the head" is a copout until you can find a practical way to remove it form "in the head".
LessBread
LessBread
Quote:
Original post by DakeDesu
Quote:
Original post by LessBread
Quote:
Original post by DakeDesu
Ghost tends to be an ethreal shell of a person who has left their physical body.
Really? Show me.

Uh... how?


I don't know but I'm not the one putting forth that definition.

Quote:
Original post by DakeDesu
Quote:
Original post by LessBread
Quote:
Original post by DakeDesu
A Shadow Person is a more recent phenominom of a rather evil group of entities that seem to want to kill humankind. Check out some of the occult around Sudden Unexplained Death Syndrome.
har har, you funny... [headshake]


Actually how the Shadow Person is related to SUDS, as a lot of people, before dying of SUDS have explain experiences where they would have dreams where a Shadow Person, or in cases a Demon of some sort (thus ending up with the two linked), sitting on their chest, not allowing them to breathe.

Coast to Coast AM (a show normally filled with crap, but sometimes there are diamonds in the roughage) will sometimes talk about shadow people.


I saw that in a movie once... [grin] The idea is entertaining but not credible.
"I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes." - the Laughing Man
Benjamin Heath
Benjamin Heath
Life is a simple thing that wants so much to be very complex.

A person will believe what he wants to believe as long as he wants to believe it. So, if a person wants to believe that the dead live on, a belief in ghosts may be very strong, and if a person wants to believe that dead means dead, then to him, the dead are conscious of nothing.
LessBread
LessBread
Quote:
Original post by Nytegard
Quote:
Original post by LessBread
Whether it's the only explanation for ghosts remains to be seen, but if ghosts can be dismissed as manifestations of errant electrical impulses in the brain... maintaining such beliefs would make as much sense as maintaining the belief that Zeus and Thor have something to do with lightning and thunder. I find that this part of the brain is involved with processes related to language and cognition very interesting given the primacy of language in consciousness, culture and spirituality.

Well, with the news that a parasite can make women sexy and men dumb along with this, it's more proof that the human condition and thoughts can be manipulated and controlled.


"In short, it can make men behave like alley cats and women behave like sex kittens". That's a highly clinical summation... [grin]

Quote:
Original post by Nytegard
I guess I worry about this from an ethical standpoint. Sure, we disprove ghosts. But at the same time, now you allow for more further study on the claim of ridding humanity of psychological problems with a hidden benefit to powerful entities that allow rewiring of brains. Maybe they can't control thoughts, but if you can remove shadow entities, what's to stop them from creating a shadow entity? What's to stop a Matrix?


I agree that ethical considerations should be a concern. As I wrote before, such technology could make for a very wicked implement of torture. These findings don't necessarily disprove ghosts. As intrest86 argued, explaining the sensation doesn't automatically disprove the phenomena that otherwise produces the sensation. If we stimulate a person's brain so that they sensed the smell of chocolate, it wouldn't mean that chocolate didn't exist. These findings could also have been announced as a discovery of the brain processes that operate when we sense someone standing behind us, but that would have been boring. It wouldn't have afforded the op-ed writer the opportunity to reflect on the history of science and we probably wouldn't be having this discussion either.

I think an all encompassing virtual reality is a giant leap from these findings, but I agree that it's worth asking about the implications of creating the sensation of a shadow entity. So far it's only been done with two people, so it may not hold for any random person, but assuming that it could be, I can see a couple of applications already. If it could be applied surreptitiously, it could be used to drive a person insane. The CIA would love that. And perhaps it could be applied to prisoners so that they felt like they were always being watched and thus behave better. Again though, ethical questions...
"I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes." - the Laughing Man
DakeDesu
DakeDesu
Quote:
Original post by DakeDesu
Ghost tends to be an ethreal shell of a person who has left their physical body.
Quote:
Original post by LessBread
Really? Show me.
Quote:
Original post by DakeDesu
Uh... how?
Quote:
Original post by LessBread
I don't know but I'm not the one putting forth that definition.


It is a common definition between monster hunters. To understand it, you need to know about the structure of how the paranormal stands up on.

At the top is the Astral Dimension. Below that is the Mental Dimension. Below that is the Emotional Dimension, below that is the Ethreal Dimension, below that is the Physical Dimension. Then below that, one of the more contraversal Dimensions, is the Shell Layer. Generally when somebody dies, they first shed off their Physical Body. If they have unfinished business, they will stick around in their Ethreal shell. Though, normally they will head directly to the Astral Plane--in some cases fast enough that their Ethreal Shell still exists on the Ethreal plane--allowing for various creatures who live on the Ethreal plane may feed on the now devoit of life Ethreal Shell.

Though this is more relevant to the vampyre hunting portion of monster hunting, and no, I am not refering to teenage goths on this one. How vampyre exist is in order to keep existing on the ethreal plane, they must keep their physical body, which they are linked too, fed with energy. Some older cultures where more open to this version of vampyrism, that they would often keep the physical bodies in special aparetments and would offer things to feed them, so as not to keep them from feeding on the sick and injured living.

This more or less changed after the vampyres of Egypt were abandoned, and they had to forcefully take on food. Mostly through the action of what has become known to some as "Hagging". Which is quite a bit linked to Shadow Persons.

Because of the Ethreal state of vampyres, that is why nails burried in thier graves will stop them (ever have your ethreal body come in contact with conducting metal? It is not a decent feeling).

Quote:
Original post by DakeDesu
A Shadow Person is a more recent phenominom of a rather evil group of entities that seem to want to kill humankind. Check out some of the occult around Sudden Unexplained Death Syndrome.
Quote:
Original post by LessBread
har har, you funny... [headshake]
Quote:
Original post by DakeDesu
Actually how the Shadow Person is related to SUDS, as a lot of people, before dying of SUDS have explain experiences where they would have dreams where a Shadow Person, or in cases a Demon of some sort (thus ending up with the two linked), sitting on their chest, not allowing them to breathe.

Coast to Coast AM (a show normally filled with crap, but sometimes there are diamonds in the roughage) will sometimes talk about shadow people.
Quote:
Original post by LessBread
I saw that in a movie once... [grin] The idea is entertaining but not credible.


It has happened in more than a movie. It has the name of "hagging" made famous by an entity known as "The Old Hag". Where in she will enter your room as you sleep and steal some of your energy. If she steals too much, you die. Various entities on the Ethreal plane will often use this as a cheap way to feed on the week's ethreal energy. Heck, the "Greys" have also found a way to "hag" people.

How hagging works, or so I've gathered, is the entity puts you into a dreamlike state (though completely unlike a glamour--but that is a different topic). Then it goes through your memories to try to figure out what your room _should_ look like (I've witnessed them screwing that up--putting somebody into a wrong room during a hagging is a good way for it to fail). They then have some entrance to your room open--such as a door, but more often as a window. They will then put their form into the hagging dream, and then will, in some manner steal your energy. The Shadows, will often do so by sitting on your chest. This is not always to kill you, though, most people who have dealt with Shadows, have found they tend to have sinister attitudes.

There are two main ways to get rid of Shadows
The hardest being, to beat them while they are "hagging" you, which is the hardest to accomplish. To do this you need to be a lucid dreamer. You then simply move atleast one body part, as usually they will try to keep you paralysed (it is easier for them to zap energy that way). Once you move, it tends to cause them pain, and will, temporary go away. (They will eventually stop once you've proven it wasn't a fluke). If that is too much, sometimes realising it is just a dream, and not reality, is enough to throw them off guard and send them away.
The second being, to simply confront them outside the hagging. This can be done by simply walking through them, or being confident and tell them to leave you alone. They will try to instill fear into you, but confidence will send them looking for a weaker target.

-=-

However, saying this is uncredible, I can simply say that Static Force is uncredible and the correct model is the Raisin Bun model :P
nullsquared
nullsquared
Wait! So you can recreate thoughts externally? Doesn't that mean we can invent a device to make us all geniuses in like... a second?

Topic Locked

This topic has been locked by a moderator. New replies are not allowed.

Sign in to reply to this topic.