Random

This has nothing to do with 'Random'.

Do you detect any signs of pseudo random?

There is no such thing as 'random' so I have no idea what 'pseudo random' is even supposed to mean.

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Original post by AndreTheGiant There is no such thing as 'random' so I have no idea what 'pseudo random' is even supposed to mean.

I'm sure you do. Pseudo Random.

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A pseudorandom process is a process that appears random but is not.

Thats my definition of regular random.

Yay! I'm also really glad to see that this thread has stayed on topic, despite the original poster's attempt to derail it.

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Original post by AndreTheGiant Quote: A pseudorandom process is a process that appears random but is not. Thats my definition of regular random.

That makes your definition of random self-referential, circular, and largely useless.

Most people consider a coin flip to be random.
But if you knew the force at which the thumbnail hits the coin, the exact position and the angle, plus any upward movement of the arm, and the air temperature and air speed (if any), elevation from sea level, distance to the floor, composition of the floor and any obstacles, etc etc etc, then theres nothing random about the coinflip. You can calculate how it will land. When you break things down like that, nothing is really random.
But for the 2 dudes standing at the bar flipping a coin to see who goes over to talk to the pretty girl, then for all intents and purposes, the coinflip is random because they have no way of calculating all that nonsense.

Most people consider a random number generator in a computer to be 'pseudorandom'. This because if you know the algorithm used to generate the numbers, you can calculate the next one.
But for the 2 dudes playing Diablo online and seeing how much gold the next killed goblin will drop, then for all intents and purposes, it is random because they have no way of calculating that nonsense.

Wether something is 'random' or not only depends on how much information you have to and your ability to calculate the result beforehand. If you can, then its not random, if you can, then it is random.

There is not really such a thing as 'pseudorandom'. Or to put another way: pseudorandom and random are the same thing. It all depends on how much you know about the event. If you know all the physics of the coinflip, then its not random. If you dont, then it is. If you know the algorithm & seed of a random number generator then its not random. If you dont, then it is.

Its all very subjective. But I dont think 'pseudorandom' is a useful term, because 'random' is already pseudorandom.

These are the things that keep me up at night when I'm lying in bed trying to sleep.

Whether or not the world itself is deterministic does not affect the definition of "true" random. We can still have the concept.

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Original post by AndreTheGiant [...]then theres nothing random about the coinflip. You can calculate how it will land. When you break things down like that, nothing is really random.[...]

Unless, of course, you believe in certain areas of physics that say otherwise. If we can, at best, model an atom probabilistically, then there is no reason to think it's really deterministic despite the continued failure of efforts to demonstrate it so.

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Original post by AndreTheGiant Most people consider a coin flip to be random. But if you knew the force at which the thumbnail hits the coin, the exact position and the angle, plus any upward movement of the arm, and the air temperature and air speed (if any), elevation from sea level, distance to the floor, composition of the floor and any obstacles, etc etc etc, then theres nothing random about the coinflip. You can calculate how it will land. When you break things down like that, nothing is really random. But for the 2 dudes standing at the bar flipping a coin to see who goes over to talk to the pretty girl, then for all intents and purposes, the coinflip is random because they have no way of calculating all that nonsense. Most people consider a random number generator in a computer to be 'pseudorandom'. This because if you know the algorithm used to generate the numbers, you can calculate the next one. But for the 2 dudes playing Diablo online and seeing how much gold the next killed goblin will drop, then for all intents and purposes, it is random because they have no way of calculating that nonsense. Wether something is 'random' or not only depends on how much information you have to and your ability to calculate the result beforehand. If you can, then its not random, if you can, then it is random. There is not really such a thing as 'pseudorandom'. Or to put another way: pseudorandom and random are the same thing. It all depends on how much you know about the event. If you know all the physics of the coinflip, then its not random. If you dont, then it is. If you know the algorithm & seed of a random number generator then its not random. If you dont, then it is. Its all very subjective. But I dont think 'pseudorandom' is a useful term, because 'random' is already pseudorandom. These are the things that keep me up at night when I'm lying in bed trying to sleep.

Alright, Mr. Fancy Pants, how do we predict the location AND velocity of an electron after we bounce a photon off of it?

A quick serach with google gave me this definition: "Random means not completely predetermined by the other variables available". Basically there are variables unknown to us. With Pseudo Random the variables are known, just hidden to the user. We can recreate the order of random numbers since the variables are known. So there is a difference.

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Original post by Extrarius Quote: Original post by AndreTheGiant [...]then theres nothing random about the coinflip. You can calculate how it will land. When you break things down like that, nothing is really random.[...] Unless, of course, you believe in certain areas of physics that say otherwise. If we can, at best, model an atom probabilistically, then there is no reason to think it's really deterministic despite the continued failure of efforts to demonstrate it so.

so till you know all the variables its random? and when you do know them its not random anymore? mmm...

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Original post by capn_midnight Quote: Original post by AndreTheGiant Most people consider a coin flip to be random. But if you knew the force at which the thumbnail hits the coin, the exact position and the angle, plus any upward movement of the arm, and the air temperature and air speed (if any), elevation from sea level, distance to the floor, composition of the floor and any obstacles, etc etc etc, then theres nothing random about the coinflip. You can calculate how it will land. When you break things down like that, nothing is really random. But for the 2 dudes standing at the bar flipping a coin to see who goes over to talk to the pretty girl, then for all intents and purposes, the coinflip is random because they have no way of calculating all that nonsense. Most people consider a random number generator in a computer to be 'pseudorandom'. This because if you know the algorithm used to generate the numbers, you can calculate the next one. But for the 2 dudes playing Diablo online and seeing how much gold the next killed goblin will drop, then for all intents and purposes, it is random because they have no way of calculating that nonsense. Wether something is 'random' or not only depends on how much information you have to and your ability to calculate the result beforehand. If you can, then its not random, if you can, then it is random. There is not really such a thing as 'pseudorandom'. Or to put another way: pseudorandom and random are the same thing. It all depends on how much you know about the event. If you know all the physics of the coinflip, then its not random. If you dont, then it is. If you know the algorithm & seed of a random number generator then its not random. If you dont, then it is. Its all very subjective. But I dont think 'pseudorandom' is a useful term, because 'random' is already pseudorandom. These are the things that keep me up at night when I'm lying in bed trying to sleep. Alright, Mr. Fancy Pants, how do we predict the location AND velocity of an electron after we bounce a photon off of it?

I second this :D

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Original post by deja_vu Quote: Original post by Extrarius Quote: Original post by AndreTheGiant [...]then theres nothing random about the coinflip. You can calculate how it will land. When you break things down like that, nothing is really random.[...] Unless, of course, you believe in certain areas of physics that say otherwise. If we can, at best, model an atom probabilistically, then there is no reason to think it's really deterministic despite the continued failure of efforts to demonstrate it so. so till you know all the variables its random? and when you do know them its not random anymore? mmm...

yes and this bring us at a turning point in the world of randomness , to avoid the current caps on pseudo number generator we need to lower general education in such a way that most people wouldn't be able to figure out the formulas on wich random number they see on screen are based , this sounds pretty damn random to me!

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Original post by deja_vu Quote: Original post by Extrarius Quote: Original post by AndreTheGiant [...]then theres nothing random about the coinflip. You can calculate how it will land. When you break things down like that, nothing is really random.[...] Unless, of course, you believe in certain areas of physics that say otherwise. If we can, at best, model an atom probabilistically, then there is no reason to think it's really deterministic despite the continued failure of efforts to demonstrate it so. so till you know all the variables its random? and when you do know them its not random anymore? mmm...

No, according to our best understanding at the moment, some variables are not deterministic, so you can't know their value because they don't have one.