Well, I seem to find that the Design forum is the best read, so here''s my (attempted) contribution. In many RPGs (just lost half of the readers), experience leads to a level increase, henceforth referred to as "leveling." In turn, leveling leads to an increase in potential skills, oftentimes handing a game points to distribute among his character''s attributes. I feel that this approach is fundamentally wrong, and seem to hear echos of this often in this forum. So I propose the following... And just a quick clarification--I have been playing a lot of Diablo 2 lately and am talking about about exactly the way you get 5 attribute points and 1 skill with each increase in your level. In real life, I go about my day trying to improve myself. Improvement is a function of response to any number of activities. I may go to class and try to master a new concept, I may go to the gym and try and lift more than the previous day, I may sit down in front of the computer and write some application, I may try and teach myself a new move in whatever sport I happen to enjoy. Additionally, I hit milestones in life that seem to mark transitional stages. I can see tangible results as I reach certain goals. These results can be specific: I may ace a test, throw a 60 lb dumbell through the ceiling, code Doom3 in a week, or out-rebound Shaq. Whenever this happens, I am pleased: I have learned from my experiences, applied them, and bettered myself. The milestones tend to be broad: get your license, graduate Highschool, buy your first car, register to vote...this list continues throughout your life, as does the first, and it too represents an accomplishment. Both of these types of achievements have been drawn upon by RPG designers: Go kill 30 orcs, your accomplishment results in leveling. Save Washington from a terrorist attack, congratulatins, you level up. Unfortunately, the result handling turns out to be totally unrelated in structure. Suddenly, you are leveling and are granted 5 attribute points. SWEET!!! I want to be able to carry a heavier machine gun, so I put them all towards my strength. And wallah, experience has led to tangible results. But what if you just found a bomb in a plane and disarmed it with your leatherman and a role of duct tape? How in the world does that enable you to be physically stronger. I don''t go to class and study expecting my college degree to make me a championship swimmer. Many games emphasize leveling as a way to better your character, and I believe in the underlying principle. But I think your character''s improvements should reflect your experience, as in real life. If your character got stabbed 3 times but managed to fend off his attacker and make it back to the town healer, the experience from this adventure should lead to an increase in vitality and stamina. If you carried around 10000 gold coins while adventuring, its safe to say that after you rested you may find yourself slightly stronger than before. Scenarios can easily be created for any attribute. This should apply to skills too. If your adventurer drives a tank for 2 hours, how in the world is he suddenly a proficient knife fighter or paratrooper? That is ridiculous. Attributes and skills should be increased based upon their usage while the character is gathering experience. Upon reaching a new level, a character should be assigned improvements by the DM, or, in this case, the game application. So, some implementation ideas... 1.)Assign activities specific types of experience; now hide these from the player, but make them follow common sense and logic. When leveling, take percentages of the expereince types, and assign based on those. This needs to be strutured so that every attribute/skill has a fair chance of being improved. Specifically, it would not be fair to allow only a brute force method of attack to accomplish a quest if you (as the designer) wanted the possibility of a character increasing his intelligence during a quest. 2.)Abolish leveling, at least at the user''s level. They no longer see "12437 experience points needed to reach level 73." Rather, your application levels them. Further implementation ideas for hidden leveling structure: a.)Still use points, just hide them from the user. b.)Level at quest completion. c.)Time based. Every 45 minutes (or whatever) gather the percentages, do the math, and better the character. d.)Random--assign random events to trigger this (either random times or random points). e.)Combine these any crazy way you want: level by points, sometimes level by quests, and if they''ve gone too long without improving, level. 3.)Multiple types of leveling. Since the player never sees "Level 23", level at different times based on different things. Always level at certain experience point increments, increasing attributes based on the percentages, but go ahead and increase attributes at certain quest completion''s as well. This should in no way affect the experience point totals, and should be tied to the quests as opposed to the specific experiences used to accomplish it. Clarification: have an abundance of quests that, when accomplished, increase specific attributes by a specific amount, ignoring experience percentages completely. The logic being that to steal the Ruby of Power from the king, some amount of cunning, guile and logic was needed, so upon presenting the prize, you character increases in dexterity and intelligence. Now, during the quest, you ran your sword through 4 guards as well; the experience from that will lead you to higher strength and better swordsmanship when you level, but that is completely independent from the extra intelligence/dexterity you just received. My real life example: If you go to college to get a PhD in philosophy then, upon completion, you should know a ton about philosophy. If, during your education, you used the web as a major instrument in research, at some point you should be familiar enough to know your way around an internet browser. Both of these have results, obtained through the same work but at different times and in different ways. Honestly, I think that it helps to see a goal (such as when your character next levels) to keep a player playing. So maybe keep a little experience bar with a set distance to a new level, but no other information regarding what this will lead to. The mystery can make it even more enticing, giving your game a bigger hook. I know that if I think I am close to leveling, I will play for an extra 15 minutes. I had some other ideas about implementation, but seemed to lose them somewhere along the ramble. Hopefully I''ll post more if there is any response and I remember. In the mean time, I need 3 more strength points so I can wear the Holy War Boots of the Titan, so I am going to go play Diablo and try and level. --OctDev

Have you ever played Ultima Online? When you practice a skill, you get better at it. Fighting helps you get better at fighting. And using skills will also improve attribute associated with that skill (For example, if you fish, you can gain strength and dexterity).

-Blackstream

Interesting; that''s definitely part of what I was trying to express.

I have never played UO. Ultima 3 pretty much got me hooked on RPGs as a little kid, and I played a lot of the following Ultima''s, especially Underworld 1 & 2, and U7 (Black Gate, I think). I haven''t played any in ages though, have never played online, and don''t seem to remember any of the old ones working that way. I will have to try UO out some time, thanx for the direction.



--OctDev

In our RPG system when generating a character, the player can choose from many (and I do mean many) skills and abilities. Also he can choose how experienced is he in the selected skill. The trick is, that we calculate a specific amount of time, needed for the player to master the skill at the wanted level. So everybody can have Fencing at 10 expirience (which is max), but he''s gonna have to play with 56 year old hero. Also if he wanned the Blacksmith skill, so he can repair his armor/weapon, at decent level, he''d have to choose Blacksmith 4 and loose another, let''s say 4-6 years. This would result in 61 year old hero and this in the beggining of the game! Well, i can asure you, it won''t last long!

The right way to do it is put 2-3 points of ex on the skill you want to specialise, like Bargain, and 1-2 max on some others, you think it''s good to have, but you don''t want to become a master in them. Later in the game, when you get a chance of practicing a skill, it''ll rise in percents, like if you practice Fencing 3, you''ll get 3+15% and so on. Once you''ve got all the percents up to 100% you go to the next EXP level. Have in mind that those %s are INCLUDED in the calculations.

Also, there''s always a way to learn a new skill. Depending on your inteligence, that is. If you go to the Healer''s house and he asks you to go and collect this and that herb for him, cuz his feet hurt etc etc, and you bring him the CORRECT ones, you could, if you wanted, to be taught in Herb Collecting skill at level 0. That indicates you DO KNOW that skill, but you don''t have enough practice. Of course, it''s gonna be hard to find the correct herbs you need in the beggining, but if you keep looking, you''ll sucseed, and if you sucseed you gonna get better. One day if you''re really keen herb collector, you could go up to 6-7, maybe even higher level of EXP.

But if you don''t regulary practice the skill, those %s start lowering. I.e. if you''ve spent the last 4 years on a ship, it IS natural your riding skill to lower. Of course, you have a preference, bonus for faster learning, when you start practicing that skill again.

Enough for now...


Boby Dimitrov
boby@azholding.com

You''re absolutely right about this problem being fundamentally wrong, Oct Dev. In fact, I believe the whole idea of PCs levelling up is an antiquated throwback to older days. I''m working on an article called "Drawbacks of Hit Point Systems", which is about that very subject.

The levelling up process endangers the player''s suspension of disbelief. It is another statistic he needs to be concerned with. It detracts from time spent playing the game, and causes the player to shift focus from the game itself to technical details which have nothing whatsoever to do with the game world.

It also creates problems for designers. The designer must constantly keep up with the PCs expected level, balancing the game world on a guess as to the PC''s strength. Also, things which were challenging when first encountered are stale and boring later in the game. Consider the goblins the player finds in the first dungeon. They are formidable. But later in the game, goblins are weak and worthless opponents. What was a challenge is now a boring, tedious experience.

There are many other problems, of course. I don''t want to get into everything here. But you are certainly right to search for an alternate system. I''d like to hear how it all works out. Good luck!


Jonathon

quote: "Mathematics are one of the fundamentaries of educationalizing our youths." -George W. Bush