Coder wanted, "dungeon sim" prototype

(Read the following with the voice of Dungeon Keeper announcer).
[DK]
Dungeon Keeper,eh ? A noble goal indeed. Your creatures are angry because you havent supplied them with enough textures since your last post a year ago.
Your creatures have left the dungeon.
[/DK]

Youre not going to believe me, but two days ago Ive been actually thinking about you and if you managed to get any further with the DK idea since the last year when you brought up the idea here (with a bit megalomanistic features, nonetheless). Spooky, isnt it ?

So, you still are interested in making it happen, which is great news.

I could create some sort of playable prototype for you where you could edit the level (using my own 3D Editor), place creatures and walk with the main character.
The view would be starting at Top-down Camera, and freely zooming into 3rd person - if you played Dungeon Siege - thats exactly the camera that Ive got implemented.

I cant devote too much time to it during next 5 weeks, since Im extremely occupied with the Intels GameDev contest - see AquAttack, but gimme a mesh or two and some dungeon textures and Ill get you a demo.

Did you manage to create any additional creatures ?

What about the environment ? To retain the DK atmosphere, the level should be carved out of the rock, otherwise itll look like any other RPG (which Id like to avoid at all, if possible).

JPEG and reading pixel colour information probably isn't a good mix. I'd change that requirement to PNG. Jpeg tends to be "lossly" so the the colours maybe blurry and it makes it much harder to code a reader.

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Original post by Karnot Talent needed: - Coder.

Very vague. Will this "coder" be doing heavy work? 3D programming? AI? Graphics? GUI?

Are you looking for experienced applicants, beginners (a learning project), or what?

It's always hard for me to know whether I should consider something like this unless I know I'm over-qualified. Of coarse, being less vague in your description would make one only need to feel qualified.

Splinter : The description isnt vague. Hes looking for coder that shall make it happen, so hes supposed to do everything thats needed. He was direct in that the coder can pick tools of his choice.

joe1024:

Yeah, nice to see you too, and active as well. :)

First things first :
What mesh format do you prefer ?
And how do you implement animation data ?

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Your creatures are angry because you haven`t supplied them with enough textures

Haha, well, thats the absolute truth actually, i polished my drawing ability since then, but still cant handpaint a texture. I plan to (FINALLY) fix that in a month or two and buy a wacom.

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I could create some sort of playable prototype for you where you could edit the level (using my own 3D Editor), place creatures and walk with the main character.

Well, since you're making such a generous offer...i'll take you up on it.
But really, the most important part is AI. If you're too busy to stay - maybe you'll point me in the direction of some beginner level AI tutorials, or maybe there are resourses that have working examples ?
Theres lots of stuff to have : unit reaction to the presense/lack of light sources, units remembering which rooms they've been in, visibility detection, etc.

No additional creatures specifically for this project, no.

As for DK atmosphere retainment - my original idea was a derivative with a limited base-building, and since that time i've reworked it several times over. So while its still very much a DK-like and DK-inspired - it wont be a clone. And there'll be next to no base-building. In a traditional sense.

Balaam:
Understood. Thank you.

Splinter of Chaos
The answers to your questions are in the "additional info" section. I described the kind of application that i "feel" will be sufficient as a prototype. I cannot be certain, because i never made any before. I hope you did.

Well I can help you with AI. This project seems interesting enough for me to spend a lot of my time on it. Drop me an email to phusar@gmail.com in case you are interested.

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Original post by joe1024 Splinter : The description isnt vague. Hes looking for coder that shall make it happen, so hes supposed to do everything thats needed. He was direct in that the coder can pick tools of his choice.

I was mostly getting at the "Are you looking for experienced applicants, beginners (a learning project), or what?"

It's confusing to read "can" instead of "have" or "knows how to" or "is willing to learn to" create whatever. Or, at least to me it is. After all, I "can" do calculus equations, but it's more accurate to say I'm "willing to learn to" do calculus equations (I have the potential and background, I just don't know what they are).

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Original post by Karnot What mesh format do you prefer ? And how do you implement animation data ?

First step is to have *.ASE files. Then it goes through my importer and is gradually converted to about 4 formats, each one being more compressed. My engine handles transitions between different animations automatically, so there wont be a harsh pop between them.

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Original post by Karnot Haha, well, thats the absolute truth actually, i polished my drawing ability since then, but still cant handpaint a texture. I plan to (FINALLY) fix that in a month or two and buy a wacom.

Aaah, thats bad. Texturing is critical if it is to look a little bit decent. I understand that unwrapping is a tough skill to learn, but these days you can handpaint the cahracter directly - in tools like Bodypaint.
On the other hand, if the view is from top, there wont be too much detail seen during gameplay anyway...

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Original post by Karnot But really, the most important part is AI. If you're too busy to stay - maybe you'll point me in the direction of some beginner level AI tutorials, or maybe there are resourses that have working examples ?

Well, your last post was a year ago, so if I wont be very active for a month or two, it shouldnt matter much, if you get some editor to play with, right ? But I would definitely welcome if someone took responsibility over the AI and possibly gameplay.

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Original post by Karnot Theres lots of stuff to have : unit reaction to the presense/lack of light sources, units remembering which rooms they've been in, visibility detection, etc.

These things can be easily defined in a FSM table/matrix. As long as were consistent and dont change things too much, this shouldnt be an issue.

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Original post by Karnot As for DK atmosphere retainment - my original idea was a derivative with a limited base-building, and since that time i've reworked it several times over. So while its still very much a DK-like and DK-inspired - it wont be a clone. And there'll be next to no base-building. In a traditional sense.

Well, Id hope for more traditional DK gameplay, or at least major part of it. Well see.


What art assets do you have now ? Id like to create some early demo, but Id need some art assets for it - wall textures / floor textures. Do you have any ? I could use some of my own, but Id like to get as much art assets from you as possible.

Im going to dig some of my own textures and put them into editor and post a screenshot here later, OK ?

Splinter : I see your point, but you could notice that the OP is mostly artist so he can`t really know everything that goes into game creation. Though I see your point that he probably should, if he wants to get the right attention.

pw:
Sent mail.

joe1024:

Okay, found the ASE exporter no problem.

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Aaah, thats bad. Texturing is critical if it is to look a little bit decent. I understand that unwrapping is a tough skill to learn, but these days you can handpaint the cahracter directly - in tools like Bodypaint.

No-no, you misunderstood, i was plainly stating that i cant currently paint on PC. Unwrapping is pretty menial, not hard, and in some cases mostly automatic, painting on the other hand...
I know there are some gifted people who can create amazing textures/sculpts with just their mouse, but they are few in number, and i am not one of them.

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Well, Id hope for more traditional DK gameplay, or at least major part of it. We`ll see.

Thing about DK - the "dungeon" part was quite good, the "keeper" part not so. And they failed to create "an inverse dungeon crawler" as Bullfrog claimed in the beginning of its development. Which was the main point of interest for me at the time. The heroes part was just tacked on the base-building foundation, really.
Evil Genius took the right steps, IMO, with enemy agents "intelligently" snooping around, and actually having agendas and background, but the "dungeon crawler" familiarity has disappeared completely.
I'd like to go with the original Dungeon Keeper's premise, an "inverse dungeon crawler", with heroes having personalities simulating behavioral patterns of dungeon crawler players.

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What art assets do you have now ?

Well, to be honest i wasnt expecting to have a 3d application right off the bat. I was thinking about something in the lines of top-down untextured 2d view, just as a test you know. So i dont have any textures on hand. But these days there are loads of tiling textures floating around that are free for non-commercial usage. Even seamless textures. So i'll dig around and select a few.

As for meshes - i still have those original two, rigged up. I have another, lighter and more docile version of a lizardman, 1650 tris, also rigged.
I guess i should start making some environment objects, such as braziers and doors and stuff. At least there i could use photo-texturing.
And of course i'll start building the hero models, i was thinking of making three basic ones : "normal" soldier, "brute", and a thief.

Well wait and see what kind of textures shall you produce. In worst case, we might try searching for a texture artist, but thats a long way from here.

Ive searched through my texture archives and found some usable textures in the meantime, though they needed some changes in unwrapping before I could texture the mesh. But until we get something better it might be enough for editing/testing. Notice that the lighting isnt interior since Ive had switched that some time ago and didnt have time today to get it back.

Heres some early shot from the editor:
Editor Shot

The character is from one older game of mine. As soon as you provide me with ASE files I can import him.

Your proposed changes to gameplay (compared to DK) seem interesting. Do you have some design document ?

As for the hero - forget 3 different models. Its quite a task to finish one character with full texturing and all animations, let alone 3. I`d rather have 2 additional monsters than just 2 additional races/player types. That could also be offloaded to other artists.

joe1024 :
PM'd you with some technical questions.

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But until we get something better it might be enough for editing/testing. Notice that the lighting isnt interior since Ive had switched that some time ago and didnt have time today to get it back.

I think you're too agitated about the visuals being "on the level", if you dont mind me saying so. :)
Its the same as you yourself said just few lines above : "long way from here."

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Your proposed changes to gameplay (compared to DK) seem interesting. Do you have some design document ?

No. You admitted that you "skimmed" over my last design doc, so i didnt care taking great pains writing everything down in excruciating detail. :)
No one would bother reading it. The exact design document specifications should be written as a result of discussions within a team. Or so i believe today.
Now i have a vision and a concept doc, about 3 pages long. I still rework it occasionally, to give a better explanation of this and that.

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As for the hero - forget 3 different models. Its quite a task to finish one character with full texturing and all animations, let alone 3. I`d rather have 2 additional monsters than just 2 additional races/player types.

Yes, fully textured and animated its a decent amount of work.
But the models themselves are not much of a bother, you know. :)

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Original post by Karnot I think you're too agitated about the visuals being "on the level", if you dont mind me saying so. :) Its the same as you yourself said just few lines above : "long way from here."

Yes I am :-) It would be a shame if it looked only as good as original DK did 10 yrs ago, these days - dont you think ?
Lighting will change everything. As will per-pixel lighting. But without great textures, no effects can save the day and itll still look like sh*t.

The texture itself can actually be of lesser importance if you do hi-poly meshes. We should shoot for 0.5M - 1.0M poly scene at any time, this seems like a sweet spot these days since even prehistoric low-end GF6600 can handle it in smooth framerate. Its more work when modelling but much less with texturing.

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Original post by Karnot No. You admitted that you "skimmed" over my last design doc, so i didnt care taking great pains writing everything down in excruciating detail. :)

Yeah, because Ive been at work at that time (so it was impossible to set aside over one hour to read the doc thouroughly) and later the thread didnt seem to have any signs of life ;-) I would take a look at it now, if its still available, though.

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But the models themselves are not much of a bother, you know. :)

Yeah, the low-poly meshes are rarely more than 10% work of final textured mesh with all range of animations being imported into the engine. Ive seen this happen too many times - to loose the time on variations of players mesh while there weren`t any enemies whatsoever. If you are really keen on doing it, do a compromise and create just one additional hero mesh, OK ;-) ?

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I would take a look at it now, if it`s still available, though.

Yes, its still up, but dont you dare take another look at that bloated monster of a doc ! :)
I'll send a condensed new version your way, soon as i finish translating it. Its only 3 Word pages in 12-point font, so its readable in under 5 minutes.