Optional leveling

I think this could work well with mini-games. The PC can for example try to open a lock without even having the skill by solving a difficult puzzle. The more skill levels he'd have, the easier it gets.

As with more active skills, I'd guess this would work best in an FPS-RPG (live Oblivion). Obvious skill effects would be accuracy and damage that increase with skill, but I wouldn't go there. Instead make skill have an effect on the gittering (is that the right word?) hand like sniping in Deus Ex. A skilled player can still get the timing right but higher PC skills would make aiming easier.

Another problem would be the 'waste' of skill points. Only hardcore gamer would want to take that challenge. Instead, make every unused skill point go into some kind of pool that gives a bonus. The more points in it the more general bonus you get (for something). This would allow for two distinct playing styles.

Depends. If "levelling" is just about boosted stats, then I'm all for it. After all, what's the higher difficulty level in Halo except an HP handicap and a weaker gun?

But if leveling unlocks your maneuvers, then it would suck. Nobody wants to play through the whole game as a ninja who can't do any ninjutsu, just bonking enemies with a wooden sword and never doing any awesome backflips.

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Original post by Hegemon Another problem would be the 'waste' of skill points. Only hardcore gamer would want to take that challenge.

..and..

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Original post by Iron Chef Carnage But if leveling unlocks your maneuvers, then it would suck. Nobody wants to play through the whole game as a ninja who can't do any ninjutsu, just bonking enemies with a wooden sword and never doing any awesome backflips.

You both seem to have taken it the same way. Just because it's possible doesn't mean players are expected to do it. No one should want to play through it without gaining skills. A masterful character would be desired by all players. I mean sure, players could win the game without gaining skills just to say they did it, but that isn't the motivation behind the concept. The game would expect all players to attempt to gain skills. It just wouldn't require them to gain them in order to succeed.

You will never need to have this level of that skill to win against that monster. Any monster can be defeated with no skills, as long as you don't mind a very rough ride. Players would also miss parts of the game by playing without skills. Something as simple as a vent on a ceiling could lead to other opportunities. You don't need to reach it in order to win, but you'll miss out on those extra options.

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Original post by Kest You will never need to have this level of that skill to win against that monster. Any monster can be defeated with no skills, as long as you don't mind a very rough ride. Players would also miss parts of the game by playing without skills. Something as simple as a vent on a ceiling could lead to other opportunities. You don't need to reach it in order to win, but you'll miss out on those extra options.

I accidentally played much of Jade Empire like this, partly because I liked the action/martial arts and partly because I felt the game was too easy. Some fights, though (like the final boss fight) were all but impossible until I chose one particular combat style-- and then I was able to suddenly level up a bunch and pour points into it (and kill the badguy in four hits).

I have mixed opinions on the idea. I like strategy and arcade in my RPG precisely for the reason that I want the personal pride of actually winning the fights (which is yet another reason why the lag-limited "race of the health bars" gameplay of many MMOs is a turnoff). I also like the feeling that I can bypass certain quests and not suffer unduly from missing them.

One worry I'd have though comes again from my Jade Empire experience: When you get your butt kicked playing this way, how do you know whether or not it's your abilities (you're not fast / good enough) or your strategy (you just haven't found the right approach)?

I remember getting bogged down and reloading maybe about 12 or 13 times fighting this one boss ghost. Near the profanity ladden end, after switching weapons and tactics, I felt that I won more by luck or some statistical fluke, simply because I got his healthbar down slightly faster than he got mine down.

I could have turned away, but I got locked into the fight (mentally) and felt that I couldn't walk away without hurting myself later in the game.

If players play the way that I think you're describing, how inclined would you be to allow them to retrace their route / undo their behavior and get what they've missed?

This only really works in an environment where the game sets a world where you risk something to use your points. Space siege for example lets you install cybernetics but you risk becoming like the crazed cyborgs. Or bioshock constantly hints that using plasmids will make you into a splicer. Giving incentive like this lets players want to limit their use. Otherwise, why bother making it hard for yourself.

I get your point, Kest. I'm fairly certain one can design the game mechanics in a way that a zero-skill character can beat the game.

But I think it's nothing a game should be designed for. It screws up balancing if you think of a certain way to beat the game during design and just limits you. There are just too few players who would actually try this kind of hardcore gaming.

The thought itself is interesting, but I'd like to see it as an integrated game mechanic (like mentioned Space Siege, BioShock), rather than a hardcore possibility for a bored few.

Try Deus Ex (1) to see some interesting concepts of how skills affect FPS gameplay; it's very well done. And I'm sure there are people out there who figured out ways to beat the game without using any skills.

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Original post by Wavinator One worry I'd have though comes again from my Jade Empire experience: When you get your butt kicked playing this way, how do you know whether or not it's your abilities (you're not fast / good enough) or your strategy (you just haven't found the right approach)?

By strategy, do you mean leveling strategy? Otherwise, this question could be asked of any non-RPG video game.

As the player, only you can determine if you're playing as effectively as you care to. If you are, and you're still losing, then your character is ill equipped for your playing style.

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If players play the way that I think you're describing, how inclined would you be to allow them to retrace their route / undo their behavior and get what they've missed?

I'm not sure I follow your use of the word undo. My game is open ended. Players make their own decisions about where they go and what they do. But that doesn't mean there are no unique situations. They won't have the capacity to travel back in time to them, but they can choose to face very similar situations in the future.

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Original post by AlexCrafter This only really works in an environment where the game sets a world where you risk something to use your points.

Why would it only work in that type of environment?

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Giving incentive like this lets players want to limit their use. Otherwise, why bother making it hard for yourself.

As I mentioned before, players are not expected to make it hard on themselves. No one will want to avoid obtaining skills. Just because you can win a race with a junker using pure piloting talent doesn't mean anyone would want to. How about a little of both?

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Original post by Hegemon I get your point, Kest. I'm fairly certain one can design the game mechanics in a way that a zero-skill character can beat the game. But I think it's nothing a game should be designed for. It screws up balancing if you think of a certain way to beat the game during design and just limits you. There are just too few players who would actually try this kind of hardcore gaming.

Apparently, you didn't get the point. No players are expected to try that kind of hardcore gaming. The game would allow victory with player talent, regardles of character skills. But no one will be expected to avoid them. By simply playing the game, skills will be granted to them.

Consider playing a game like Half Life 2, with exactly the same difficulty. Now add an accuracy skill, a recoil supression skill, and a sniper skill. What changes? Players could still win the game, even with those skills at the lowest level. Would anyone want to? Probably not. It would be slow paced and clumsy. The point is that it's possible. With enough sheer will and determination, a player can win any situation without relying on character skills.

[Edited by - Kest on August 24, 2008 3:45:02 AM]