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Diet Pills

Started by capn_midnight 20 replies 3.5k views
Original Post
capn_midnight
capn_midnight
Hey gang, maybe you folks can help me out. My mother has been bugging me to apply my limited knowledge of chemistry to evaluating these diet pills she recently ran across: Orovo Detox. I was hoping that someone within the vast breadth of GDNet's membership would maybe have encountered it previously and could confirm my suspicions. This review is the only non-Spam one I could find. It basically comes to the conclusion that there might be some limited antioxidant properties, but as a weight-loss pill it's dubious. It looks to me like it's just the focus of one of those Multi-level marketing schemes. There is a very good reason why MLMs are difficult to distinguish from Ponzi schemes. These things crop up 10 times a year, and all they need is some kind of product to peddle and some newbie to buy it. If it were a legitimate product, I would think it would be marketed and sold in a more legitimate way. My mother has struggled with her weight for a very long time, at least the last 15 years. She technically classifies as "Obese", having a BMI of just over 30. I can see that she is starting to adopt a rather defeatist attitude on the whole affair. Frankly, she baffles me, because she doesn't ever seem to lose weight no matter what she does. With her recent (well, the first one was more than a year ago now, jeez) knee surgery, she can't engage in much of any physical activity, but even when we were all training in martial arts together full-time she hadn't lost any weight. I mean, I was her instructor for at least a year, I know she wasn't just slacking off, she often worked harder than any of my other students. She doesn't eat a lot of food, standard three meals and no snacks. I do a lot of the cooking in the house, so I know she doesn't eat junk. She's had thyroid exams and her thyroid is fine. She's been working closely with her doctor for years on this issue. She makes very good efforts on eating healthy and working out and sees almost no results; I can see how it would be very frustrating for her. I think that frustration is starting to turn into desperation and I'm afraid she's just looking for something to latch on to. So maybe you guys can help me put this Orovo stuff to bed, and along the way suggest a road that might lead my mother to a more healthy life, because apparently living a healthy lifestyle isn't working.
Extrarius
Extrarius
First, BMI is meaningless. It doesn't measure anything at all. What is her waist-to-hip ratio? What is her body fat percentage?

Second, why does she care? Obesity is not a health issue in and of itself[1]. If she is primarily concerned about her appearance, then she might want to look into liposuction or other forms of cosmetic surgery.

Alternately, maybe she should see a psychiatrist. I've known several people that seemed to live a relatively healthy lifestyle that lost significant weight after starting treatment for mental disorders.

[1] There was a recent study released in the last few months showing that the correlation between obesity and other diseases was not nearly as strong as previously believed, and that in general obese people were not at significantly greater risk than anybody else. I'm looking for the study and I'll post the link when I find it.
"Walk not the trodden path, for it has borne it's burden." -John, Flying Monk
capn_midnight
capn_midnight
Quote:
Original post by Extrarius
First, BMI is meaningless. It doesn't measure anything at all. What is her waist-to-hip ratio? What is her body fat percentage?

I understand the deficiencies of BMI, but those criticisms only hold for marginal differences in BMI value, not general sweeps. A BMI of 31, well past the "overweight" stage and into the "obese" stage is a pretty good indicator that something is wrong. But even if she isn't 65lbs overweight (by what the BMI scale suggests), by looking at her one can tell she is obviously at least 35lbs overweight.
Quote:

Second, why does she care? Obesity is not a health issue in and of itself. If she is primarily concerned about her appearance, then she might want to look into liposuction or other forms of cosmetic surgery.

Well, for one thing her knees wouldn't hurt so much if she weren't carrying so much extra weight. But I don't see how you can conclude that obesity isn't a health issue. Yes, the physical mass is not directly responsible, but don't you think that is just semantics? About like saying "cigarettes don't cause cancer, it's the smoke that does you in."
Moe
Moe
I'd say stay away from the weight loss pills. It's a good idea to question anything claiming to be miraculous. They usually seem to be a cash grab.

I'd recommend swimming, aquasizing, or aquatics (or whatever they call it these days). It's low impact, yet involves quite a bit of actual work. Combine that with a healthy diet (making sure calories out > calories in) and that ought to do it.
Extrarius
Extrarius
Quote:
Original post by capn_midnight
[...]I understand the deficiencies of BMI, but those criticisms only hold for marginal differences in BMI value, not general sweeps. A BMI of 31, well past the "overweight" stage and into the "obese" stage is a pretty good indicator that something is wrong. But even if she isn't 65lbs overweight (by what the BMI scale suggests), by looking at her one can tell she is obviously at least 35lbs overweight.[...]
Appearances can be deceiving and common sense doesn't always apply. You might look at a strong football player, for example, and assume he is healthy, but the truth is that excessive muscle and excessive body fat are correlated to very similar symptoms like sleep apnea. Health is a very complicated issue. The study I mentioned in the edit (that I'm still looking for) showed that diseases are not significantly correlated to the common idea of being overweight etc and that just as many 'thin' and 'healthy' people had heart disease, etc.
Quote:
[...]About like saying "cigarettes don't cause cancer, it's the smoke that does you in."
No, it's like saying that primarily shopping at a store that sells cigarettes doesn't cause cancer - whether you'll smoke them is not significantly related.

Anyways, from what I've seen, pills work just fine if you're willing to suffer the consequences. If the pills do anything, they'll do just as much (if not more) bad as good. She might find her weight significantly reduced because the pills helped halve her lean mass %, for example. Well, except in the case where the pill is prescribed for a disorder and the weight loss is only a side effect - in that case pills are sometimes more helpful than harmful.
"Walk not the trodden path, for it has borne it's burden." -John, Flying Monk
frob
frob
I recommend against self-medication, especially something like their product with no substantial background.



If she wants to lose weight or manage it, I suggest she go to clinical dietitian, or if she's old, a gerontological dietitian. Dietitians are regulated, and the vast majority of them have backgrounds in nursing or other clinical practices.
samoth
samoth
Those pills claim to be "Mother Nature's Best Toxin Removing SuperDetox Agents". Seriously, though... your mother can have those a lot cheaper.
Luckless
Luckless
I would suggest she try swimming at least three times a week, every day if she can, and switching from 3 meals a day to about 7 or 8 smaller meals.
Old Username: Talroth
If your signature on a web forum takes up more space than your average post, then you are doing things wrong.
OrangyTang
OrangyTang
Swimming isn't particularly good exercise for weight loss, you really need to do a good distance (like at least 1km) at a reasonable speed. But most people (especially if they're overweight) will just float along for a few lengths and call it a good workout, when really they could have got the same benefit from walking to the shops.

Exercise is 90% discipline and sticking to a routine. An aqua aerobics class would probably be better as it gives the needed structure while remaining low-impact.
Mantrid
Mantrid
i think how she was training with you is the basic template for the way to go

my mum was overweight and after a million diets started just "casually" trying to lose weight alongside her sister, they'd go for 2-3 mile walks a few times a week, go shopping together and stick to the same rules with food etc. buy food for her diet then normal stuff for the family, on the proviso that no one was allowed to touch the diet stuff (even though it was generally nicer, like low fat desserts etc.). if she'd done it on her own it seemed more like exercise. but meeting up with my aunt to walk was more like a sociable thing, same as when they'd have a weighing-in night or something, it was more of a social thing where they'd have a giggle, and she's fine now, at her target weight range and has been for a few years (having been overweight since she was a child)

having said that, sometimes it's harder for some people than others. i know my girlfriend eats like an elephant to gain some weight and she's been 7 1/2 stone (105 pounds according to google) for the 3 years i've been going out with her, though she is small-boned so isn't really unhealthy, she'd just like to be a bit bigger but can't gain anything, it'd be the same principle of metabolism for your mum possibly, which makes it more difficult, but if she's eating healthily that's better than being overweight because she's eating unhealthily, for obvious reasons, since that's a whole range of diseases/issues usually linked to being overweight that don't really apply
capn_midnight
capn_midnight
Quote:
Original post by OrangyTang
Swimming isn't particularly good exercise for weight loss, you really need to do a good distance (like at least 1km) at a reasonable speed. But most people (especially if they're overweight) will just float along for a few lengths and call it a good workout, when really they could have got the same benefit from walking to the shops.

My mother was a sport swimmer in highschool. Even today, with all of her health problems, she could probably outswim me. But it might be something she could get back into.

Like I said before, my mother does not slack off on exercise, when she does exercise. It was lots of fun whenever some new guy would come into the karate school, see how overweight mom was, sometimes even comment on it in her earshot, and then she would wipe the floor with them during sparring sessions. When she was weight training, she could leg-press well over 400lbs. She's not exercising right now because of her knees, but even when she was exercising a lot she wasn't seeing any appreciable weight loss.

I'm trying to convince her to get back into weight training right now. She could easily do upper-body work without stressing her knees. However, one's legs are a large proportion one's body, and I'm not sure if upper-body work will be enough.
SticksandStones
SticksandStones
Capn: Is it possible she could do low-impact cardiovascular workouts? Going at a moderate pace on an eliptical machine might be a reasonable way for her to get at least some cardio in. Aerobic exercise is great for burning fat, especially while you're in the aerobic zone and not the anaerobic.

If she handle the eliptical machine, have her try to do interval steppings. That is, have 2 minutes of low resistance and low incline walking and then 2 minutes of high resistance and high incline walking (if she can manage it with her knee). Try to keep speed constant.

What does her diet look like? What is her height and weight? How many grams of protein/fat/carbs per day is she getting? If she begins exercising intensely (especially weight lifting) you want to make sure she's getting enough protein.
On top of that, not eating enough can be worse than eating too much. Not getting enough to eat will cause all sorts of problems when working out and in the long term may cause you to gain weight.

Finally, have her look at this thread and look at the transformations that take place. If there is anything that can inspire someone to get to the gym it's that.
hippopotomonstrosesquippedaliophobia- the fear of big words
capn_midnight
capn_midnight
Anything with an incline is a no-go. She's technically not supposed to be going up and down stairs or hills.

We're looking at getting a stationary recumbent bike.
Erik Rufelt
Erik Rufelt
Fat is burned over the whole body, it's not possible to burn fat in just part of it. If that was what you meant with needing leg-exercises.. training just one muscle isn't good, but it will burn fat equally over the whole body.
Best way to get rid of it though is to walk, like.. a few hours every day, without resting or eating during, if that is possible. Or do some exercise with the arms instead that goes on for a long period of time, not just weight-lifting. Strength is healty, but doesn't really burn fat..
It's also good to get out walking first thing in the morning, before breakfast, that way one will burn fat right away and not energy from food. Also, the first 30 minutes of exercise doesn't burn shit, it's only after you're warmed up and keep doing it that you actually get rid of any fat.
Best thing is ofcourse to contact some professional, I might not know what I'm talking about =)
SticksandStones
SticksandStones
Quote:
Original post by capn_midnight
Anything with an incline is a no-go. She's technically not supposed to be going up and down stairs or hills.

We're looking at getting a stationary recumbent bike.


That's a good idea. Those bikes make for excellent work outs. If you can combine that with swimming (a good distance, 45 minutes of laps maybe?) she should see some results.

Also, someone else mentioned it but I'll say it as well: instead of eating three large meals, eat several smaller meals.
hippopotomonstrosesquippedaliophobia- the fear of big words
SticksandStones
SticksandStones
Here is another article on the topic of diet pills. Namely, thermogenics.

You said your mother has been struggling with weight for 15 years. Can I ask if you have any idea about what changed around the time she started putting on weight? Did she start/stop working? Did she move? Did a relative or close friend die? It's entirely possible she's experiencing a psychological response to something she needs professional help with.
hippopotomonstrosesquippedaliophobia- the fear of big words
_Sigma
_Sigma
My dad has had fantastic success with The Zone diet/eating plan.

He isn't obese, but wanted to drop 20 lbs, and he's almost done that in the matter of a couple of months.
thedirt
thedirt
You need to post pics of your mom for us to help you.
kurtkz
kurtkz
If you're looking for a healthy, natural alternative to commercial diet pills you should try to find a supplier of hoodia plants in the States. The San have been using it here in South Africa for centuries and it's medicinal benefits have been well documented. The plant itself looks like a tiny cactus and can be used raw in salads, but a few companies down here have been selling it in capsule form.

Cheers
Kurt
Naurava kulkuri
Naurava kulkuri
Looking at the Product Sheet, it looks like humbug. There are some antioxidant properties – that are cheaper to get otherwise – but weight loss: no.

PubMed (NCBI PubMed A service of the U.S. National Library of Medicine and the National Institutes of Health) is a rather good source of information. Even if only the abstracts are available.

What I can tell, leg-press of over 400 lbs for a woman is good. Overweight isn't a training problem, but a diet problem. If she's an ex-athlete, it could be that the appetite remained even though she stopped training in active, goal-oriented way. In that case I'd gather the basic nutrients building blocks are there and she just needs to revise the amounts and probably start exercising more.

On the other hand, if her diet is unhealthy (trans fat, saturated fat, raffinated carbonhydrates etc.) then she should take a look about that also. It helps to know that a good, low-fat steak with fresh salad and a pepper sauce is healthy. Also unsaturated fats should be there. If she's eating too much, she should strive for eating less. Casein based products help to alleviate hunger and are a good source of protein.


I'm very busy at the moment, so the aforementioned doesn't probably look like very coherent. [smile] But perhaps this is some food for thoughts. Anyway, I think your mum has a good change of doing this since she has done athletics and probably likes doing it. I'd say diet is the piece to tackle here.


P.s. Oh, and there are dietary supplements that help to lose weight and that actually work. The price is outrageous for something as ordinary as like chilli, pepper, paprika packed in pills etc. (To name a few of the most common ingredients...) Anyway, building muscle mass is a good way to lose fat. Thinking of training, interval based is most efficient.
---Sudet ulvovat - karavaani kulkee

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