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GDNet at the Movies: So, just how bad was Watchmen?

Started by Oluseyi Mar 9, 2009 at 1:08 AM 36 replies 10k views
Original Post
Oluseyi
Oluseyi
I have no problem with spoilers. Some people really get agitated about spoilers, throwing little hissy fits and saying ridiculous things like, "Gee, asshole, thanks for ruining it for me!" I can really only name two films that would be lessened by knowing the outcome before you see them: Hitchcock's Psycho and The Usual Suspects. Thing is, even after you've seen them, they're still worth seeing again. To validate spoiler anxiety is to suggest that a story, once heard, is not worth hearing again. It's a hopelessly ridiculous notion simply on the face of it, given that oral histories, children's bedtime stories, folk tales and legends are all established, fixed in our memories and elevated to immense cultural relevance through their retelling and re-hearing. Repeating stories is what we do as a species, a fact which also makes the frequent charge that "Hollywood is out of ideas" and "only does remakes" ludicrous. For one thing, Hollywood has done remakes from day one. Many of the very earliest films made in Hollywood were adaptations of literature or theater, translations from the printed page or the stage to the silver screen. For another, make a list of the 100 greatest Hollywood movies you've ever seen and then see how many of them weren't adapted from books, short stories or other original sources. (You'd actually be shocked by the results. And look it up, don't just go by titles; lots of movies are based on elements taken from "unrelated" short stories or even articles in popular publications.) It costs a lot of money to make a movie; it always has. Even in this era of cheap and pervasive digital technology, making a multiplex-level feature, visually, is still an expensive proposition. Yes, there are creative end runs around that (The Blair Witch Project made its grainy camera a plot element), but the fact that the movies are still Serious Business explains why so few complete risks are taken with them. Find something proven in the marketplace or with a "core audience," then repackage it for the public at large. Which brings us to Watchmen. Despite my screed on the pointlessness of agitating over spoilers, I won't ruin the film for you. Yet. I'll first talk about the film on its own, and then talk about the graphic novel and its relation to the film. It is in the second section that plot points galore come tumbling out, so if you're a "spoiler screamer," stop reading where you see the sepia-toned picture of the Minutemen. Let's begin. Watchmen sucked. The film is set in an alternate version of 1985 in which US presidential term limits have been repealed and Richard Nixon has been elected to serve a third (or fourth, or possibly even fifth; the film is unclear) term, the Cold War is still in full effect and superheroes are real - except they don't have super powers. None of them. Well, except one, but we'll get to that in a minute. They're also illegal, having been outlawed a few years prior by a "Keene Act." Two "masked adventurers" are still being permitted to operate - though only one actually wears a mask - both of them agents of the US government. The others have either died, retired or simply disappeared, and are all no longer operating... except one. And then one of them is killed. This sets in motion a series of events that culminate in a premise you've seen before, and seen better executed. Along the way some origins are covered, in more senses than one, lots of people die, and there are some pretty brutal fights. Remember how we pointed out that none of these people has super powers, though? It makes you wonder, then, what's so special about them that they can perform all these incredible physical feats where others can't - not even hardened criminals in a high security prison who do nothing but work out all day. I mean, some 160-pound girl can kick a guy into mid-air, but the 300-lb thug can't? Watchmen is structured as a number of parallel stories that overlap and then converge, and while the majority of them are tonally identical, one is very different: Rorschach's, the dude with the mask that looks like a Rorschach test. His narrative takes on the classic conventions of film noir: the voiceover representing an unalterable past, the darkness and chiaroscuro with frequent projections to connote incarceration, the fatalism of the character. In the end, though, it's all just appliquée. The problem with Watchmen is that there's no "there" there, no steak after all the sizzle. It's core motivating problem is uninteresting to us in this era, living after the end of the Cold War, and so discussions of the implications of Mutually Assured Destruction and the need to save mankind from itself seem laughably quaint in the era when the nation-state is being challenged by the armed, radically ideological militia (aka terrorists, or "freedom fighters" depending on your perspective). For what it is, it's too long and it ends on far too pedestrian a note. Even the climactic moment is a let down, because the build up to it occurs over a few brief minutes of exposition. The film is too muddled, such that neither the motivations of the participants nor the imminent threat are cast into clear enough relief until the final moment, and the whole shebang is over before you know what's going on. Watchmen, the movie, really requires one to have read Watchmen, the graphic novel, to grasp all the subtleties at play, but then the film breaks from the book in ways that generally don't change the overall plot but substantially alter localized emotional referents. To really get into that, though, we must shed our friends who are concerned about not having seen the one or read the other yet, so we break for intermission while they leave...
The movie largely plays like a literal translation, in some cases seeming to borrow exact panels and sequences from the book to compose a storyboard, but then it breaks rank in key ways. The most significant is this: in the graphic novel, Ozymandias has secretly used a bunch of scientists, artists and film makers to create a "special effect" in a seeming movie production, but then kills them and uses the effect to create the impression that an alien teleported to earth and killed millions of New Yorkers in the death throes of its arrival. This is supposed to cause mankind to realize that their similarities outweigh their differences in the face of a larger, other threat. In the film, the whole subplot of the missing writer and the rest of the film crew is junked, as is the space alien effect, and Dr. Manhattan is instead made into the culprit for a series of detonations across the globe that bear his energy signature. This change I have no structural problem with, for while it vilifies Dr. Manhattan, it accomplishes the same ends - for all intends and purposes he is an alien and a greater threat than our differences, and he's not planning to stick around our solar system anyway. It's just that the premise of mutually assured destruction seems so antiquated in 2009, living as we are in the aftermath of the tearing down of the Berlin wall and cessation of open hostilities between the US and USSR. Or, hell, in the aftermath of the USSR itself! That said, it's an unsustainable peace, not the "lasting peace" Ozymandias seems to think he's created - and all agree with him on. How long before someone realizes that you can't kill Dr. Manhattan, so you might as well go on with your own fighting since that's the only one you can hurt - a fellow human? Plus, Dr. Manhattan's actions were cast as supposed retribution for his (self-imposed, I might add) exile to Mars, not as any sort of commentary on our proximity to total destruction. In the book the alien is biological, so humanity is provided with a common enemy that can be defeated given the right weapons. That provides a motivation for continued cooperation between the nations. Another change is the elimination of parallel narratives that had nothing to do with the core cast - the newspaper vendor and the kid reading The Curse of the Black Freighter, or Dr. Malcolm Long. By the way, I considered The Curse of the Black Freighter a piece of superfluous reinforcement. I get it, already - in trying to "save" that which he loved, the straggler was so blinded by rage at his imagined impending evil that he perpetrated a horror against his own, "The Parable of Ozymandias." Yawn. I liked this change. Bubastis is not explained. Veidt's assistants at Karnak are replaced with scientists, though still killed. Hollis Mason's murder is dropped. At Karnak, Veidt watches the huge wall of televisions but they're showing old movies and music videos and stuff? In the book he went to it because he "needed information," and it's showing news feed from around the world. Tsk tsk. A key problem with the entire Watchmen mythology is that it's supposed to be a look at the superheroes themselves, at their motivations and behavioral/pyschological hang-ups. It posits that the second Silk Spectre only did it because her mom made her, the second Night Owl did it because he was a nerd caught up in a fantasy neverland (and suffers erectile dysfunction as a result of being forced out of the cowl), Rorschach did it because he's crazy (but the book seems to validate his perspective and methods - something I noticed in V for Vendetta, and also in several of Frank Miller's books)... Pessimistic, negative motivations in keeping with the dourness of this book, but saying little to nothing about why, say, The Flash is The Flash. In fact, I find the book to be given far too much credit overall. The "innovative storytelling methods" it employs are par for the course in the (non-graphic) novel. See Tritram Shandy. Nothing about it is particularly remarkable, except for the fact that it was being done with sequential art mostly aimed at adolescents and teens. My admittedly snide suspicion is that its present-day champions read it in their own tween years and were over-impressed by it due to their underdeveloped perspective at the time. But now I'm just being mean. :-P I had a problem with the casting of Adrian Veidt/Ozymandias, which only amplifies my remarks regarding the physical abilities of these non-super-heroes. He simply looked too slightly built to pull off the kinds of things he was doing. In the comics, Veidt is a world-class athlete with a muscular build, so you can believe it when he beats Rorschach and Night Owl with ease or catches the bullet. I certainly didn't believe that the movie's Veidt could beat The Comedian and throw him through a plate glass window. Minor nit-pick, I guess. The special effects were inconsistent. Dr. Manhattan was a little bit clever and a little bit technically impressive, but artificial human technology and performance capture continues the Uncanny Valley nightmare - the lips were very noticeably off in any close-up scene. The faces of Richard Nixon and Henry Kissinger were the worst, though, looking like Halloween masks - like the masks worn by the bank robbers in Point Break! And the aging work done on Carla Gugino simply wasn't believable. Watchmen, the graphic novel, is incredibly dense, but all that detail doesn't add up to a compelling picture, in my opinion. Watchmen, the movie, makes a concerted effort to streamline without lobotomizing, which is admirable, but the outcome remains the same: meh.
Zipster
Zipster
Quote:
Original post by Oluseyi
Watchmen, the graphic novel, is incredibly dense, but all that detail doesn't add up to a compelling picture, in my opinion. Watchmen, the movie, makes a concerted effort to streamline without lobotomizing, which is admirable, but the outcome remains the same: meh.

I agree. Having read the graphic novel the night before I saw the movie, all the events were fresh in my mind. The movie felt rushed, like they were trying to hit the key points of the novel (and in many times translate it exactly) but didn't have much time before they had to move on to the next scene. As a result, I think anyone who hasn't read the novel would feel a little lost throughout the entire movie, not really having a chance to grasp the whole picture before they were forced to move on and keep up with what was happening on screen. I suspected the movie was going to have a problem with this anyway since Watchmen, the graphic novel, has a lot of parallel plot lines and constantly jumps between times and places, often from one panel to the next. That's not something that easily translates well to screen if you don't have a lot of time to make it make sense. Remember that the movie was originally supposed to be almost 4 hours long. Not that I would ever watch a 4 hour movie in theaters, but it goes to show just how much they had to cram in.

After reading the novel, I didn't really see what was so special about it in the first place. Sure, I enjoyed it, but it didn't really resonate as much with me now as it might have had I read it in '85 (assuming I wasn't less than a year old at the time), and I couldn't see how anyone would be able to make it into a decent movie. I enjoyed the movie, but it wasn't anything special.
KulSeran
KulSeran
SPOILERS INCLUDED! (limited time offer. as seen on tv. limit one per customer)

Not having yet read the graphic novel, I have the following commentary.
The movie was good, not the best movie ever, but good. The problem in my mind was not in the story, or the actions taken, so much as it was the story telling.
While I enjoy the 300 style rolling fight shot, it overplayed the power of the superheros in question.

The opening scene throws you into a fight between titans. They break things that people can't break, and get up to continue to fight. Veidt is fast. Too fast. But it isn't obvious till later that the initial combatant was him. Still, they continue to play up his power the whole movie.
From there, the main heroes are shown fighting. Obviously stronger than a normal man. Obviously faster. But it kills the climax. The fight with Veidt doesn't have showmanship, concrete walls breaking, or any sense of true struggle. The bullet catch drops to "well duh, he caught it." level when you should have been left guessing if he really was that fast.
There was more bang for the buck with the "death" of Dr. Manhattan. They play up the device that created him, and the device Veidt created. So in that one instant you think: "poor cat! and oh god, he just killed Dr. Manhattan." The whole end fight could have been that way.
Ilici
Ilici
I found it to be quite good myself, though by the middle of the film I had doubts that it would reach a climatic ending and feared it would drag on to a boring ending. The ending was decent in suspense but its plot didn't seem that well thought out.

I liked the visuals, especially the slow-motion shots and the scenes on Mars were pretty good.

I do agree with you on the shortcoming of the plot and the characters but I just didn't notice them since the story was quite confusing in the beginning and I was focusing on understanding what was going on.

I also liked the setting, but then again I also like the over the top sci-fi US-USSR war story in Red Alert 2 and conspiracy theories. The scenes in the beginning made me chuckle - especially the one with the shooter on the grassy knoll.

Overall: 7/10
MSW
MSW
Quote:
Original post by Oluseyi
This change I have no structural problem with, for while it vilifies Dr. Manhattan, it accomplishes the same ends - for all intends and purposes he is an alien and a greater threat than our differences,


No, for all intends and purposes Dr. Manhattan is god...which changes everything.

...Veidts plan not only gave mankind a true god but gave this RA his BASTET too. [wink]



[Edited by - MSW on March 9, 2009 5:51:22 AM]
borngamer
borngamer
I haven't seen it yet (next week maybe), but it still looks interesting and it can't possibly be worse than "The Spirit".

But, at least after reading this post I can walk in with a more balanced perspective. I think hype kills more movies and this one had some big hype.

John
DigitallyPoor
DigitallyPoor
9.5/10 in my opinion.

SOME SPOILERS AHEAD:



Like other people, I read the comics a week before the movie release and really loved it. As silly as all the costumes were, it all fits though. I think this is the most realistic representation on what happens in the world if costume superheroes indeed exist. The Cold War Era backdrop just made it even more 'real'. "We have the supermen, and he is American"- how insane is that statement?
The movie did change the ending abit; they blamed the nuking to Dr. Manhattan instead of Voidt's alien but the change made sense though. I understand the blue cat was never explained and the whole genetic-manipulation was never mentioned but I think the movie faithfully adapted the comic version as much as what can fit in a 3-hour movie. People that never read the comic may feel some parts were rush/need further explanation but I think the general character's beliefs,purposes and struggles are visible.
In the end, I'm glad we have no superheroes in the real world. I'm glad this movie was made. I do question though why people insist on bringing their kids to watch this movie; some of the scenes were downright brutal.
2d or not 2d,that is the question!!-EJ
Ilici
Ilici
Quote:
Original post by DigitallyPoor
People that never read the comic may feel some parts were rush/need further explanation


Actually, I found there was way too much explanation. Cutting it down to 2 hours would have probably made it more entertaining.

Demosthenes
Demosthenes
I liked the nod at the 9/11 attacks and the subsequent Afghanistan and Iraq invasions: in the end, when they're rebuilding New York, you can see that the cranes at work belong to the Veidt corporation... Ozymandias may have had other motives, but he used the attacks for personal gain.
Oluseyi
Oluseyi
Quote:
Original post by MSW
No, for all intends and purposes Dr. Manhattan is god...which changes everything.

Do you recall the discussion about whether Dr. Manhattan could stop all the missiles, were the USSR to launch all its nukes at once? Some "god".

Quote:
Original post by DigitallyPoor
I think this is the most realistic representation on what happens in the world if costume superheroes indeed exist.

I disagree, primarily because none of them were superheroes. Dr. Manhattan was the only character with superhuman abilities. The rest were all just normal people who worked out a lot, apparently. So, really, it's a realistic representation of the sort of pathology that must be at work to make a normal person put on a garish vinyl/leather/spandex suit and "fight crime." Hardly insightful.

Quote:
...I think the movie faithfully adapted the comic version...

I felt it was more of a translation between media than an adaptation. In an adaptation, you reevaluate the source material to find the essential elements and then express them in a manner appropriate for both your target medium and audience. The movie was too faithful to the graphic novel, to its own detriment.
Benjamin Heath
Benjamin Heath
Quote:
Original post by borngamer
But, at least after reading this post I can walk in with a more balanced perspective. I think hype kills more movies and this one had some big hype.


Indeed it does, which really attracted all the same people who saw the other superhero flicks to go see Watchmen, expecting it to be like that. However, the audience that would actually get it are only a subset of those people. My roommate, for example, is absolutely not in the Watchmen's target audience -- he just went with his girlfriend because they both thought the previews looked cool. "Most boringest movie I'd ever seen" were his words when he got home. [lol]

I didn't bother with it. Maybe I just like positive things, and the Watchmen is just another deplorably morbid fiction. I get it, I get all the themes and the story. I also feel sick afterwards, so, good for Alan and Dave.
MSW
MSW
Quote:
Original post by Oluseyi
Quote:
Original post by MSW
No, for all intends and purposes Dr. Manhattan is god...which changes everything.

Do you recall the discussion about whether Dr. Manhattan could stop all the missiles, were the USSR to launch all its nukes at once? Some "god".


That was a dicussion between Veidt and Night Owl. Veidts plan worked by setting off all those SQUID energy bombs all over the world simultaneously. Effectively putting the fear of GOD into mankind. Creating god, just like creating giant squids...only god can't be destroyed, or ignored either.
Oluseyi
Oluseyi
Quote:
Original post by MSW
That was a dicussion between Veidt and Night Owl. Veidts plan worked by setting off all those SQUID energy bombs all over the world simultaneously. Effectively putting the fear of GOD into mankind. Creating god, just like creating giant squids...only god can't be destroyed, or ignored either.

I can't quite decide if you're arguing that Dr. Manhattan has power equivalent to "god," or that the people view him with the reverence and fear they would practically give to "god"... or if there's a difference.
ChaosEngine
ChaosEngine
My own review:

The movie was about as good as it could've been. Watchmen was never meant to be a movie and Moore has stated on several occasions that it was written to play to the strengths of the graphic novel (i.e. you can read it slowly and notice details in the writing and the artwork each time). The movie didn't really have any of that. Watchmen wasn't just about the core story, it's an analysis of the superhero mythos and what drives these people to do the things they do.

Snyder is reasonably technically competent, but was way out of his depth here. Someone like Kubrick could've made it something the complemented and built on the source (ala 2001), but only if Moore was in on it. Hell, even Terry Gilliam's vision would've been interesting to see.

As for this version of the movie, it was ok. The fight scenes were (typically) overdone, and just further reinforced to me that Snyder missed the point (hint: 300 *was* actually about stylised violence, Watchmen wasn't). But that's par for the course these days and I can live with that.

The ending for me didn't work at all, for reasons Oluseyi has already mentioned.

Quote:
Original post by Demosthenes
I liked the nod at the 9/11 attacks and the subsequent Afghanistan and Iraq invasions: in the end, when they're rebuilding New York, you can see that the cranes at work belong to the Veidt corporation... Ozymandias may have had other motives, but he used the attacks for personal gain.


I don't agree. There is nothing in either the book or the movie to suggest that Ozymandias was motivated by anything other than idealism. Hell, in the comic it's stated that he gave away all his money at one point, just so he could start afresh. He's already (by a long shot) the richest guy on earth, so he doesn't really need to do this.
if you think programming is like sex, you probably haven't done much of either.-------------- - capn_midnight
Zipster
Zipster
Quote:
Original post by Oluseyi
That said, it's an unsustainable peace, not the "lasting peace" Ozymandias seems to think he's created - and all agree with him on. How long before someone realizes that you can't kill Dr. Manhattan, so you might as well go on with your own fighting since that's the only one you can hurt - a fellow human? Plus, Dr. Manhattan's actions were cast as supposed retribution for his (self-imposed, I might add) exile to Mars, not as any sort of commentary on our proximity to total destruction. In the book the alien is biological, so humanity is provided with a common enemy that can be defeated given the right weapons. That provides a motivation for continued cooperation between the nations.

It's actually an unsustainable peace in both circumstances. Unless Veidt planned to continually create new alien lifeforms and spawn them all over the planet (which he can't easily do since he killed off everyone working on the project), there isn't a lasting enemy. Sure the USA and USSR will work together under the threat of this new, unknown, and (seemingly) mortal enemy at least in the short term, but how many years go by without incident before they go back to their old ways? And of course it's the same deal will Dr. Manhattan, since once he leaves the galaxy, queue X years of peace before the superpowers start going after each other again.

It's really quite disappointing if you think about it, and one of the reasons I was underwhelmed by the novel.
Zahlman
Zahlman
For what it's worth, I found the premise uninteresting. I guess I shouldn't be so surprised that Watchmen is dominating at the box office. Just hadn't really given it much thought.
Scint
Scint
My friends and I saw it, none of us having read the novel, and all of us expecting a super hero movie. None of my friends liked it at all, and I was "meh" about it. The complaints my friends gave were, "Not enough action", "It's too long and FELT too long", and "Dammit, why can't that guy wear some pants?"

But I really wanted to like it. Although I did not read the novel, it was apparent to me that they tried to cram too much into the movie, which made it both too long and too complex. From the beginning of the movie and Rorschach's investigation, I thought the story would be a film noir style murder mystery with superheroes involved. Then all this other stuff happened, in different time sequences, different focuses of who is the main character at the time, and really just too much. I would have enjoyed the movie a lot more if they had a central character and kept the plot focused on him.

I think a filmed version Watchmen would have worked much better as a television mini-series rather than a motion picture. Mini-series work a lot better with changing character focus between episodes.
Mr Explody
Mr Explody
I saw the movie last night, but haven't read the graphic novel. I really enjoyed the movie, and will probably watch it again.

Quote:
Original post by Oluseyi
I disagree, primarily because none of them were superheroes


Really? I don't remember any part of the movie that suggested they weren't. It may have been stated in the book, but it wasn't obvious in the movie. I think the films intention was to portray them as Super Heroes, a cut above the rest.

How does Rorschach make his mask move if he has no special power? Or am I taking it too literally and only Rorschach beleives it to move?


Also, it's rated MA15+ in Australia, but the Violence and Nudity leads me to beleive this really should have been rated R18+. I had a couple of young girls sitting in front of me giggling everytime they saw the Mighty Blue!



Benjamin Heath
Benjamin Heath
Quote:
Original post by Mr Explody
Really? I don't remember any part of the movie that suggested they weren't. It may have been stated in the book, but it wasn't obvious in the movie. I think the films intention was to portray them as Super Heroes, a cut above the rest.
Nope. Just regular people who work out, dress up, and go "adventuring", which inevitably has its own sexual and pathological connotations. Really, that core idea could be the theme for a porno, but instead it's a comic book and a movie. *shrug*

Quote:
How does Rorschach make his mask move if he has no special power? Or am I taking it too literally and only Rorschach beleives it to move?


It's viscous fluid between layers of material. Rorshach cut it from a woman's dress at a shop he worked at when he was young. His mask is not a superpower. :P

Granted, how it moves due to changing emotion is unexplained, and so it's simply a theatrical gauge for whatever's going on.
MSW
MSW
Quote:
Original post by Oluseyi
Quote:
Original post by MSW
That was a dicussion between Veidt and Night Owl. Veidts plan worked by setting off all those SQUID energy bombs all over the world simultaneously. Effectively putting the fear of GOD into mankind. Creating god, just like creating giant squids...only god can't be destroyed, or ignored either.

I can't quite decide if you're arguing that Dr. Manhattan has power equivalent to "god," or that the people view him with the reverence and fear they would practically give to "god"... or if there's a difference.



Exactly![wink]

Quote:

It's actually an unsustainable peace in both circumstances. Unless Veidt planned to continually create new alien lifeforms and spawn them all over the planet (which he can't easily do since he killed off everyone working on the project), there isn't a lasting enemy. Sure the USA and USSR will work together under the threat of this new, unknown, and (seemingly) mortal enemy at least in the short term, but how many years go by without incident before they go back to their old ways? And of course it's the same deal will Dr. Manhattan, since once he leaves the galaxy, queue X years of peace before the superpowers start going after each other again.


However...

Bubastis is the Egyption city that was the center for the worship of Bastet.

Bastet was a feline goddess first sworn to protect the Pharaoh, then later the protection of Ra (creator sun god).

In doing this Bastet roamed the land seeking to destroy Ra's enemies in his absense.

Ramesses II (AKA in greek: Ozymandias ) was the greatest of Pharaohs, whom restored the nature of the religious structure in anchient Egypt.


In short. Veidt gave mankind thier god back, and gave the god a means to protect his intrests when away. No need for createing new lifeforms when there is an indestructable one just waiting to pounce.

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