Quote: Original post by jtagge75
A lot of the purchase price for Windows is support. And thus, MS is quick about fixing security holes with the OS before most of the general public even knows about it.

lol.

Quote: Original post by Promit
Yeah, every time I start to think the Linux etc guys have finally got it figured out a little bit, something like this happens. No worse than any number of commercial screw-ups maybe, but no better either.

[lol]

That is awesome!

"hey! lets release an update which causes users work to be lost if they don't save before shutdown!"

[lol]

You know what, the fact that linux doesn't have hibernate support never even occured to me; it's been a feature on windows for so long I kinda assumed they had it as well.

I assume Linux supports 'low power sleep'? (My machine can come back from that state to login in around 3 or 4 seconds). You'd have thought in this Green age having support for such things would be important to goverments; I mean you don't want to leave your machines running all night, and sure you could shut down but why when hiberate is faster to recover from and keeps your session in one piece?

@Dmytry
You do realise that;
a) Aside from the last 3 the rest use at BEST OpenGL|ES which is NOT the same as OpenGL
b) No one in their right mind uses OpenGL|ES on the PS3
c) Most handsets don't use OpenGL|ES in the mobile phone space but use other methods for games.

AS for the last 3;
- (Commerical) games are D3D
- Linux and OSX don't give you a choice

So, what you have shown is both your ignorance AND that in an enviroment where there is no choice OpenGL is better.
Well done. [lol]

VS supports different compilers just fine; at work we use VS05 to cross compile to the PS3 (and then debug in that horrible SN-Debugger program); not via 'make files' either, just by pressing the 'build' button.

Syntax highlighter in VS is fine (but getting a major upgrade in 2010 it seems), even so throw in VAX and it's even better. Now, you could say that 'oh look, you've got to pay more money' at which point I can say 'yes, I'd rather spend money than use something which isn't as good.'

Quote: Original post by phantom
You know what, the fact that linux doesn't have hibernate support never even occured to me; it's been a feature on windows for so long I kinda assumed they had it as well.

I assume Linux supports 'low power sleep'? (My machine can come back from that state to login in around 3 or 4 seconds). You'd have thought in this Green age having support for such things would be important to goverments; I mean you don't want to leave your machines running all night, and sure you could shut down but why when hiberate is faster to recover from and keeps your session in one piece?

Linux has (and has had for a long time) both hibernate and suspend-to-ram support for most hardware (for as long as I've been using it, which is a while), though there is the occasional driver that doesn't properly support the kernel freezer. The best use case I can think of for session management is on thin clients, for which hibernating is less of an option.

Quote: A lot of the purchase price for Windows is support. And thus, MS is quick about fixing security holes with the OS before most of the general public even knows about it. What happens if some gapping hole in the Linux kernel is found? Are goverments supposed to just sit there with their ass blowing in the wind until somebody decides to fix it out of good will? And do you really want all your personal info held on a computer that has an open source OS?

Security is the silliest thing to fault Linux or any notable modern operating system on. It's got fairly major support backing from Red Hat, Novell and IBM, not to mention most kernel developers wouldn't be content to sit around with an unpatched hole in the kernel anyway. If it's good enough for Google and the NSA, the security is probably acceptable, especially with a MAC solution like SELinux.

Quote: if you have millions of peoples info on Linux computers you are basically giving the hacker a key to get in.

We call them servers. [wink] A sizeable portion of them already run on linux.

@Promit: Yeah, that's got to be pretty embarrassing for the GNOME team, and it's a pretty inexplicable decision to make. Worse is the example of Evolution (a GNOME application, for crying out loud) not even supporting it - one has to wonder whether the session management team made the decision to drop the XSMP without telling anyone. The distributors seem to be working around it for the most part by trying to ship session components from gnome-2.22 though.

Quote: Original post by phantom

Quote: Original post by Promit
Yeah, every time I start to think the Linux etc guys have finally got it figured out a little bit, something like this happens. No worse than any number of commercial screw-ups maybe, but no better either.

[lol]

That is awesome!

"hey! lets release an update which causes users work to be lost if they don't save before shutdown!"

[lol]

You know what, the fact that linux doesn't have hibernate support never even occured to me; it's been a feature on windows for so long I kinda assumed they had it as well.

What?? Linux has had support got hibernate and suspend as long as I have been using it. On my laptop, it also wakes up from suspend in 3-4 seconds. What made you think there was no hibernation? Also, that link of Promit's doesn't seem to affect me. I use Gnome 2.24 and the session is saved and restored just fine. Maybe it was fixed by an update by the time I installed.
<edit>Ah crusadingknight explained it</edit>

OpenGL is not as nice as Direct3D for games, it sucks that the Khronos Group dropped the ball so hard, but maybe next time. Visual Studio, on the other hand, I cannot stand. Even when I was on Windows only, I couldn't figure that mess out.

The upshot is that I am more productive and enjoy using my computer more when running Linux. If that isn't the case for you, don't use it, I don't care. Unlike Microsoft or Apple, nobody is losing sleep over Linux's market share :).

hmmm, I guess I misunderstood a comment in that linked to blog about the hibernate stuff *shrugs*

phantom:
1: you asked rhetorical question where are opengl games if stability of opengl is good. The answer is, almost everywhere you got hardware acceleration at all - precisely because opengl is a stable API.
The reason why majority of platforms have OpenGL for accelerated 3D is that it is a stable, open API. The reason why there's no alternatives on other platforms is that nobody except near-monopolist would roll their own entirely non-standard API.
There is always a tradeoff - in this case, between big changes every few years to keep it shiny, and support on wide range of platforms.

2: OpenGL ES: you even know the API? If not, just SU.

3: "b) No one in their right mind uses OpenGL|ES on the PS3"
wut? Isn't PSGL heavily based on OpenGL ES, and isn't LibGCM terribly low level?
I admit I never developed for PS 3.

4: choice: on windows until very recently you had no real choice either - ATI had rather bad opengl support.

5: stop trolling this into opengl vs directx flamewar. Someone asked about stable API, i told that opengl is stable api (and it certainly is). Disagree? No?

1) So where are all the games on windows then?
2) And if you think OpenGL|ES and OpenGL are the same then really it is YOU who need to SU [smile]

3) Yes, PSGL is based on GL|ES and no one uses it because it is inheritently slow.

4) I developed on ATI hardware using OpenGL for years with little/no problems. The majority of the code path was fine and in some regards they conformed better than NV in some areas.

5) trolling? You brought up a point, I gave a counter point that being that stable wasn't very useful as the API is now very poor AND if it was so useful I asked were all the games were (implicated vs all the D3D games). If you see a differing viewpoint from someone who used the API for years as trolling then I think you should probably get off the forums now as you'll find all the differing viewpoints out there very hard to handle...

Quote: Original post by phantom
1) So where are all the games on windows then?

Not using windows. I imagine there's quite a few small titles still.
I heard id software did switch to directx though, which is a significant blow (i cant use reduction ad carmacum anymore).

Quote:
And if you think OpenGL|ES and OpenGL are the same then really it is YOU who need to SU [smile]

Never said they're same. There is a differences document available online, which you can read, and which i did read some while back.

Quote:

2) Yes, PSGL is based on GL|ES and no one uses it because it is inheritently slow.

who said? if you: did you do development for PS3 ?

Quote:
3) I developed on ATI hardware using OpenGL for years with little/no problems. The majority of the code path was fine and in some regards they conformed better than NV in some areas.

hmk. I hope Yann joins here, he was complaining about ATI quite a lot.
From top of my head, on ATI, glReadPixels still silently does BGR rather than RGB in some cases. Also, I had to fiddle with command order on multiple occasions (not having ATI card, it is kind of difficult to fix any issues).

Quote:
5) trolling? You brought up a point, I gave a counter point that being that stable wasn't very useful as the API is now very poor AND if it was so useful I asked were all the games were (implicated vs all the D3D games).

and I answered where.

Quote:
If you see a differing viewpoint from someone who used the API for years as trolling then I think you should probably get off the forums now as you'll find all the differing viewpoints out there very hard to handle...

I never said anything here about opengl being better than directx (when you're supporting only windows thats it). All I were saying was that opengl is a: portable, b: stable (i even said it is probably too stable).

I guess I'll say it now. For my case, for instance it is better for one reason (portability). edit: and another reason. I've non-game background. I developed some plug-ins for 3d editors and similar kind of stuff before, and large portion of those use opengl.

Quote:

Quote:
2) Yes, PSGL is based on GL|ES and no one uses it because it is inheritently slow.

who said? if you: did you do development for PS3?

I DID develop for PS3, and I know lots of others who have as well. PSGL is a tool for quick ports at best, a joke at worst. Nobody who takes the platform seriously with even consider using it. (This may be a drawback of the implementation rather than a result of any inherent fault with the OpenGL model -- of which there are quite a few.)

Quote: Original post by Promit

Quote:

Quote: Original post by Dmytry
2) Yes, PSGL is based on GL|ES and no one uses it because it is inheritently slow.

who said? if you: did you do development for PS3?

I DID develop for PS3, and I know lots of others who have as well. PSGL is a tool for quick ports at best, a joke at worst. Nobody who takes the platform seriously with even consider using it. (This may be a drawback of the implementation rather than a result of any inherent fault with the OpenGL model -- of which there are quite a few.)

So, how are you using that other API? Do you license some engine which is hiding it neatly?