grad school

Though, I went straight into grad school after undergrad, I am working full-time myself.

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What kind of things are schools looking for in applicants, i.e. are they looking generally for people who want to teach (I'm personally more interested in entrepreneurship or industrial research), or is that not a big deal?

They're looking for people that want to do research. Whether you want to teach, go back into industry or wherever, the point is: They want to produce people who will engage in sound, and innovative research practices instead of hacking away at code all day. (Some of my professors have said that you'll end up spending more time writing papers at the research level then you would have thought)

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How important is it to have a rock-solid idea of research topics, or is there an expectation that students have general interests that will be refined over time after exposure to research projects?

I came into grad school with just the faint idea that I wanted to do AI related research. The professors I've spoken to have since helped me refine that idea into a working thesis topic. As long as you have a vague idea of some sort and you're not just waltzing in there twiddling your thumbs, I think you should be okay. Honestly? I would get on wikipedia look under computer science and then look at the broad fields there. Also, check out acm.org. See the kinds of papers people are putting out. Maybe that could spark some ideas.

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How important is it to have research interests that match what the school has already worked on in recent time?

This one is actually "somewhat" important. You're going to have to find an advisor that is either working on what you're interested in, or cares/knows enough about it to help you. I would look at the school as a whole, then look at the individual professors and see what their research interests are. Maybe send one an email with a question or two.

You should have free reign to work on whatever you want (to the extent that an advisor can care/helps-you).

I would recommend getting this book:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0374524777/qid=1068082220/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/104-3308652-8615126?v=glance&n=507846

its titled: "Getting What You Came For: The Smart Student's Guide to Earning an M.A. or a Ph.D."

It provides an overview and experiences of persons from the school selection and application process, up to the thesis/dissertation defense.

I hope you decide to apply to grad school again. I definitely like the experience.

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Original post by Indulgent Systems They're looking for people that want to do research. Whether you want to teach, go back into industry or wherever, the point is: They want to produce people who will engage in sound, and innovative research practices instead of hacking away at code all day. (Some of my professors have said that you'll end up spending more time writing papers at the research level then you would have thought)

That's actually something I've considered and I think it might be a point in my favor. With consulting, I'm not just a code monkey that gets handed tasks through the bars with his bananas in the morning. I have a lot of responsibility for managing relationship and communication with the client, and that is done with a lot of face-to-face meetings and a lot of official documentation. I actually haven't done any significant coding in the last 6 months because I've been busy writing requirements specifications, design documents, test plans, and any number of proposals for different projects.

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I came into grad school with just the faint idea that I wanted to do AI related research. The professors I've spoken to have since helped me refine that idea into a working thesis topic. As long as you have a vague idea of some sort and you're not just waltzing in there twiddling your thumbs, I think you should be okay. Honestly? I would get on wikipedia look under computer science and then look at the broad fields there. Also, check out acm.org. See the kinds of papers people are putting out. Maybe that could spark some ideas.

I know what is available in the field. In fact, I even did an original research project in non-photorealistic rendering for an undergraduate thesis project. The problem is, I have very broad and varying interests in the field. Right now, it would be somewhat difficult for me to narrow it down to just one thing. I routinely play around with software engineering concepts, artificial intelligence, graphics, etc.

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I would recommend getting this book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0374524777/qid=1068082220/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/104-3308652-8615126?v=glance&n=507846 its titled: "Getting What You Came For: The Smart Student's Guide to Earning an M.A. or a Ph.D." It provides an overview and experiences of persons from the school selection and application process, up to the thesis/dissertation defense. I hope you decide to apply to grad school again. I definitely like the experience.

Thanks.

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Okay, so a few more particulars. I'm looking to try to get in to Fall '09 semester for a master's program. Unfortunately, that means I've missed a few deadlines for applications. However, I haven't missed everyone, and there are quite a few pretty decent places still taking applications for quite a while.

I'm currently looking at (in roughly this order):
University of Pennsylvania
Drexel University
Georgia Institute of Technology
University of Maryland, College Park
University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
and University of Pittsburgh (I'm actually too late for Fall, but have time still for Spring)

Like I said, I completed an original research project, which I presented at a research symposium. I was very involved with department activities in undergrad. I was president of our ACM club two years in a row, I was charter president of our Upsilon Pi Epsilon chapter, and I was vice president of our programming team. I graduated with honors, though only just barely (gen eds sort of dragged me down). I scored 1370 on the general GRE (quantitative: 800, verbal:570, analytical writing:5), which according to University of Pennsylvania's statistics, is slightly above average for students accepted in to their CS master's program.

I think I can do this, I just need to know what the waters are ahead of time, because I don't have an academic advisor this time to help me out (not that he did the first time around, anyway).

Why waste 2-6 years in school? Sounds like you may have to pay for the MS until you can into a ph.d program with a fellowship. Why not take that two years and channel some creativety into creating your own products? What do you plan to study? What are the problems in this area? What are the commercial applications of these problems/solutions? Just a thought...

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Original post by OmegaHelm Why waste 2-6 years in school? Sounds like you may have to pay for the MS until you can into a ph.d program with a fellowship. Why not take that two years and channel some creativety into creating your own products? What do you plan to study? What are the problems in this area? What are the commercial applications of these problems/solutions? Just a thought...

Actually, assistanceships, grants, and scholarships are available, even for master's programs. I certainly refuse to pay full price.

It's kind of one of those things that, if I don't do it now, it becomes exponentially harder to do in the future. 2 years for a master's isn't that long, and with the way the market is shaping up, it will be a good way to ride out the peak of the storm and come out with a significant advantage on my resume. I've looked at the work load for some of these places, talked to some of my friends who have done this already, and I can't see any reason why I wouldn't even be able to at least work part time in my current position. I've been in my current job for 2 years and it still feels like I just started yesterday. And it's not a *waste* of 2-6 years. I'm still going to be productive, still be working on projects, still be doing my own thing... I'll just have better recognition for it.

After that, who knows what happens. Opportunities present themselves every day. It's not like I'm going to go to school for 2, 4, or 6 years and come out and find that the IT industry has completely dissolved. Yeah, I have ideas for a business, and that business will be successful because I'm good at what I do, not because of any "great" idea or any sense of "timing" the market. I've always believed that any job worth doing is worth doing well, and that is something that I have found has set me apart from many of my peers. But for now, I want to take some time to be selfish and focus on expanding myself.

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Original post by OmegaHelm Why waste 2-6 years in school? Sounds like you may have to pay for the MS until you can into a ph.d program with a fellowship. Why not take that two years and channel some creativety into creating your own products? What do you plan to study? What are the problems in this area? What are the commercial applications of these problems/solutions? Just a thought...

I wouldn't necessarily consider it a waste. There are companies out there that will gladly PAY for you to get your grad degree(s). That way you can still work full-time, go to school for free, and end up with a degree sometime later.

Though... if hes taking off work just to go to school full-time again... well then I'd probably ask those same questions myself.

At the very least, I'll probably have to leave my current contract. There is only one university in the area close enough to consider continuing working with my current client. Incidentally, it's my undergrad school, at which I would be accepted into the master's program immediately, but I don't want to go there because it doesn't have a very strong graduate program, and they don't do any research focus degrees.

However, I actually talked to my boss about this a little while ago, and not only was he pretty excited by the idea, he even suggested it might be possible for him to either find me another contract wherever I end up, or at least get me in contact with someone who has a position open. That was a huge relief to know that he wouldn't think I was just trying to jump ship, and that he is actually supportive. He even suggested he write one of my letters of recommendation before I ever got around to asking. He himself has a master's degree in management information systems, so he understands the importance of higher education. My previous employer two years ago was almost threatening to fire me when I started talking about grad school, "we need you to focus on the contract. It doesn't make us comfortable to hear you talking about leaving." They just didn't get that I would be more valuable to them afterwards. I hated them anyway, good riddance.

Are top rated grad schools almost certainly not an option if undergrad grades were just average?

The only thing I can boast right now is working in R&D where I learn a lot and have a title to match it but I do not publish papers. Does this qualify weakly for the 'research experience' PhD programs look for?

Between taking hard core classes on my own to demonstrate I can improve my grades, or excel at my job, which is better? For example, is it better to get A's on graduate level graphics courses or be the architect on commercial graphics engines?

In undergrad, I had a "concentration" in Graphics for my CS degree, but I'm actually not too interested in 3D graphics anymore. However, I believe the there is a lot of work left to be done in this field outside of 3D, particularly in Non-Photorealistic Rendering, Abstract Data Visualizations, and Human-Computer Interaction. So whereas the general field of graphics does still interest me, it wouldn't be necessary to seek a program that is heavily involved in graphics. I'm definitely looking for a more general program. At any rate, I still play around with programming languages, databases, encryption, and all kinds of other stuff, so graphics isn't necessarily my "thing" anymore.

It appears that I have missed the application deadline for some of the schools I'm interested in, especially in their doctoral programs. However, many of them are still taking applications for master's programs well into June and July. Do you think that using the master's program to "get my foot in the door" is a track worth pursuing? Or, should I wait until next year, retake the general GRE, and apply on time for the doctoral program? I'd rather not have to retake the general GRE.

Also, my CS subject GRE was pretty bad; I hadn't taken algorithms before I took the test, so I pretty much bombed it. Most of these schools don't necessarily require the subject GRE, but they do accept it. Should I bother with retaking the subject test, or try to explain it away in my application letter?

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Original post by capn_midnight When I was in college for my bachelor's degree, I had considered pursuing a master's or a doctorate degree to do research in computer science. My first round of grad school applications was apparently met with blank stares as I never received any contact from the schools afterwards. I've always had the sneaking suspicion that my applications were ignored because my unreliable advisor failed to submit his letter of recommendation before the application deadlines. Also, my statement of purpose letter was admittedly weak. The past 4 years have been a fairly accomplished but generally unsatisfying career in software consulting. After finding out that my original GRE scores have not yet expired and are good until January of next year, it resparked that interest in grad school in me. Is there anyone around here who waited a while after completing undergrad before going on to grad school? Is work experience in a non-research field going to be considered a hindrance, or will it be a significant differentiating factor for me? What kind of things are schools looking for in applicants, i.e. are they looking generally for people who want to teach (I'm personally more interested in entrepreneurship or industrial research), or is that not a big deal? How important is it to have a rock-solid idea of research topics, or is there an expectation that students have general interests that will be refined over time after exposure to research projects? How important is it to have research interests that match what the school has already worked on in recent time? I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark here and guess that some sort of correlation must exist, but what if the school's work in a particular field is all centered around one project, but that particular project doesn't interest me (though the topic does)?

This may not be applicable because we had different majors but for business school work experience in the field was a major plus. I got turned down for the school of my choice and reapplied 4 years later with real word experience and got accepted easily.

It's debatable whether a masters program would help you get your foot in the door. Anecdotally, I was offered PhD admission at the school where I got my masters (though I ended up going elsewhere), but mine was hardly a normal masters degree experience. I would say that it would definitely be a bad idea to go into any masters program if you weren't going to be happy with the possibility of just getting a masters degree.

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Is work experience in a non-research field going to be considered a hindrance, or will it be a significant differentiating factor for me?

It certainly won't hurt you. It may well help you. Advisors like students who can get stuff done.

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What kind of things are schools looking for in applicants, i.e. are they looking generally for people who want to teach (I'm personally more interested in entrepreneurship or industrial research), or is that not a big deal?

It's not a big deal. They want students who can do good research. To determine whether a student can do good research, they rely primarily on letters of recommendation. That will be the tricky part for you.

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How important is it to have a rock-solid idea of research topics, or is there an expectation that students have general interests that will be refined over time after exposure to research projects? How important is it to have research interests that match what the school has already worked on in recent time?

It really depends on the school. As a rule of thumb, though, advisors want students who are interested in something related to what's already going on in their research group, even if it isn't exactly the same thing. Groups that exclusively focus on one project are few and far between, though; don't assume that just because most of a group's published papers center around a particular subject, that's all they're doing.

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Also, my CS subject GRE was pretty bad; I hadn't taken algorithms before I took the test, so I pretty much bombed it. Most of these schools don't necessarily require the subject GRE, but they do accept it. Should I bother with retaking the subject test, or try to explain it away in my application letter?

If it was four years ago, and you feel like you're stronger now, and have time to review, I would definitely retake it. It's not a huge factor, but with the current economic climate, admissions is going to suspect you of running to a PhD program to escape a bad job situation rather than out of genuine interest in research, and recent test scores will "show willing".

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Original post by Sneftel It's debatable whether a masters program would help you get your foot in the door. Anecdotally, I was offered PhD admission at the school where I got my masters (though I ended up going elsewhere), but mine was hardly a normal masters degree experience. I would say that it would definitely be a bad idea to go into any masters program if you weren't going to be happy with the possibility of just getting a masters degree.

Are you saying that I would be *less* likely to be accepted into a doctorate program next year if I matriculated into a master's program this year?

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Quote: Is work experience in a non-research field going to be considered a hindrance, or will it be a significant differentiating factor for me? It certainly won't hurt you. It may well help you. Advisors like students who can get stuff done.

I'll be sure to emphasize the variety of things I've done over the last couple of years.

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Quote: What kind of things are schools looking for in applicants, i.e. are they looking generally for people who want to teach (I'm personally more interested in entrepreneurship or industrial research), or is that not a big deal? It's not a big deal. They want students who can do good research. To determine whether a student can do good research, they rely primarily on letters of recommendation. That will be the tricky part for you.

Well, I still periodically talk with some of my old professors, and one or two of them might be willing to provide a letter. When I told my boss that I was considering applying, he offered to write a letter for me as well. My client whom I currently work for has a very high opinion of me, so I'm sure he would be willing to write a letter for me. It looks pretty standard that schools want 3 letters for a doctorate program, or 2 for a master's.

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Quote: How important is it to have a rock-solid idea of research topics, or is there an expectation that students have general interests that will be refined over time after exposure to research projects? How important is it to have research interests that match what the school has already worked on in recent time? It really depends on the school. As a rule of thumb, though, advisors want students who are interested in something related to what's already going on in their research group, even if it isn't exactly the same thing. Groups that exclusively focus on one project are few and far between, though; don't assume that just because most of a group's published papers center around a particular subject, that's all they're doing.

That's good to know. That's exactly what I'm looking for. I'm usually a very independent person when it comes to project work (though I can work in a team perfectly well when I need to). Obviously, I don't want to be completely on my own; if I were, why bother going to school at all?

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Quote: Also, my CS subject GRE was pretty bad; I hadn't taken algorithms before I took the test, so I pretty much bombed it. Most of these schools don't necessarily require the subject GRE, but they do accept it. Should I bother with retaking the subject test, or try to explain it away in my application letter? If it was four years ago, and you feel like you're stronger now, and have time to review, I would definitely retake it. It's not a huge factor, but with the current economic climate, admissions is going to suspect you of running to a PhD program to escape a bad job situation rather than out of genuine interest in research, and recent test scores will "show willing".

Alright, I will forgo the subject test for *this* year, and if I apply again *next* year, I will retake both the general and the subject test. There isn't enough time to cram and retake the subject test before most of these deadlines anyway.

So again, it's looking like I'm well prepared to enter a master's program, that I have everything I need, that I just need to fill out the forms and git 'er done. But it sounds like I have some loose ends to tie up if I want to get into doctorate program. Just for emphasis, I'll ask again, is accepting a master's program position going to hurt my chances of getting into a doctorate program? I can accept it not being any easier, in which case the master's program would be a time-saving function, as well as a stop-gap measure in case I don't get accepted in to any doctorate programs. But if it would make it harder, I really think I should wait until next year to apply.

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Original post by capn_midnight Quote: Original post by Sneftel It's debatable whether a masters program would help you get your foot in the door. Anecdotally, I was offered PhD admission at the school where I got my masters (though I ended up going elsewhere), but mine was hardly a normal masters degree experience. I would say that it would definitely be a bad idea to go into any masters program if you weren't going to be happy with the possibility of just getting a masters degree. Are you saying that I would be *less* likely to be accepted into a doctorate program next year if I matriculated into a master's program this year?

No, definitely not. But depending on your masters experience, it might not be a significant benefit. If you want it to help, start working with an advisor as early on as possible.

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Well, I still periodically talk with some of my old professors, and one or two of them might be willing to provide a letter. When I told my boss that I was considering applying, he offered to write a letter for me as well. My client whom I currently work for has a very high opinion of me, so I'm sure he would be willing to write a letter for me. It looks pretty standard that schools want 3 letters for a doctorate program, or 2 for a master's.

I would strongly suggest that you limit your non-academic letters to one, if you can find two good academic sources. That's not a hard and fast rule (except that MIT requires it, if I recall correctly), but glowing letters from professors are better than glowing letters from non-professors. BTW, try to take an active hand in your professors' recommendations. Give them a list of your accomplishments; tell them what faculty members you're interested in working with; don't be afraid to brag. I know, I know, it sounds manipulative and gauche, but professors aren't going to be resentful, and it will make the letters better.

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I'll ask again, is accepting a master's program position going to hurt my chances of getting into a doctorate program?

Definitely not. But it will certainly delay you getting into a PhD program (professors are unlikely to pull a masters student to PhD before graduation, for a variety of reasons), and if you treat it like an extension of undergrad (go to class, do the assignments, get the grades) it won't be of any help at all.

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Original post by Sneftel I would strongly suggest that you limit your non-academic letters to one, if you can find two good academic sources. That's not a hard and fast rule (except that MIT requires it, if I recall correctly), but glowing letters from professors are better than glowing letters from non-professors. BTW, try to take an active hand in your professors' recommendations. Give them a list of your accomplishments; tell them what faculty members you're interested in working with; don't be afraid to brag. I know, I know, it sounds manipulative and gauche, but professors aren't going to be resentful, and it will make the letters better.

ah, thanks. That sounds like a great idea, actually.

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Quote: Is accepting a master's program position going to hurt my chances of getting into a doctorate program? Definitely not. But it will certainly delay you getting into a PhD program (professors are unlikely to pull a masters student to PhD before graduation, for a variety of reasons), and if you treat it like an extension of undergrad (go to class, do the assignments, get the grades) it won't be of any help at all.

ah, I see. I hadn't planned to do the terminating master's degree at all, I was always planning on a research master's degree. Doing something that is just an extension of undergrad doesn't change what ladder I'm on, it just feeds me back in on a higher rung of the same ladder. I definitely want to be doing *research*, I want to be solving new problems, forging that new trail, blah blah blah. There's only just so many times one can wire up a web page to a database, implement some sort of RSS feed or aggregator, and push some strings around from one database to another, and I think I've just about hit my quota.

In that case, I'd suggest you identify specific professors that you'd like to work with, and contacting them asking if they take on masters students for research work. Most do in general, but a given professor either will have stuff for students to do or won't at any given time, and you don't want to end up somewhere where you can't be of use. Additionally, this will make you known to professors as early as possible. At a school with a lot of masters students, you may have trouble distinguishing yourself if you aren't really proactive about it.

Double post, sorry.

I'm a current CS PhD student in the UK. So, things may be different in America (actually, I know for a fact that they are), but here's my experiences.

I went straight from BSc (4 years) to PhD. I had a couple of offers, from Edinburgh and Cambridge, but only got one offer of funding from the school that I'm currently at. I expected I had to write a very specific set of research proposals for Cambridge, with goals for the first year of study, etc. When I got to the interview, they were quite bemused that I had done this, and were only interested in a general area in which I wished to work (i.e. automated reasoning). The most important part of the process was my references, and how well I interviewed. The interview was pretty general, and I think was more a way of allowing the supervisor to gauge how well we could work together. (Edinburgh was different, as the guy who was going to be my supervisor was also my undergraduate dissertation supervisor, so I'd already worked with him.)

My current research is in an area only tangentially related to the area I initially applied to do a PhD in. My supervisor was in need of a student, and my supervisor-to-be at Edinburgh set me up with him, as he couldn't offer me funding. (Actually, if you aren't successful in obtaining funding, then make sure you ask your supervisor-to-be for any contacts that he may have.)

Also, if you don't already know this, how well you get on with your supervisor is the most important thing of doing a PhD, especially in a field like CS, where research topics are especially byzantine. Fall out with your supervisor, and you're fucked. Make sure you will be able to get on with your supervisor before you enroll on your PhD.

This may or may not help, but it's at least bumped your thread for you.

MDI: thanks, that actually helps a lot. It's nice to read these accounts of what it was like for other people. It gives me a better sense of what to expect. Having been out of college for 4 years, I don't have an academic advisor anymore, so there's no one else for me to ask for guidance from.