Quote: Original post by LessBread

Quote: Original post by phantom
As a collective term "defenders", although you do have the 4 sub-positions of centre back, sweeper, full back, and wing back when talking about a perticular position in the defense.

So if you wanted to talk about the players in all four positions, why wouldn't you call them "backs"? I suppose you might call them "the back line".

Because the position is 'defense' ([goal]keeper, defense, mid field and attack being the classic 4 distinctions), the 4 distinctions high light the role of individual players in that defense. For example, you can have a flat back 4 which could consist of a left and right fullbacks and 2 centre backs.

Where as another formation might have the two centre backs still and two defenders operating further forward down the flanks as wing back, giving more support to midfield and attack.

Covers various formations.
(edit: and I will say, I happend to goto here and it does say "defense or backs" however it's not a term I've heard used which is why it struck me as odd; when I hear the term 'backs' I think American football)

Quote:

Quote: Original post by phantom
The shoes thing depends on the context; boots is common, or [sport type] boots (so 'football boots'). However, in the context you were using the term it would have been 'gone in with his studs showing'.

So "studs showing" instead of "cleats up"?

Based on your description of what happened, yeah. Instead of going in with his foot flat or down facing he made the tackle with his studs more visable.

I did look up the word 'cleats' quickly when replying last time, as you say it seems to be a case of the term carrying over from something else.

Quote: Original post by phantom

Quote: Original post by LessBread

Quote: Original post by phantom
As a collective term "defenders", although you do have the 4 sub-positions of centre back, sweeper, full back, and wing back when talking about a perticular position in the defense.

So if you wanted to talk about the players in all four positions, why wouldn't you call them "backs"? I suppose you might call them "the back line".

Because the position is 'defense' ([goal]keeper, defense, mid field and attack being the classic 4 distinctions), the 4 distinctions high light the role of individual players in that defense. For example, you can have a flat back 4 which could consist of a left and right fullbacks and 2 centre backs.

Where as another formation might have the two centre backs still and two defenders operating further forward down the flanks as wing back, giving more support to midfield and attack.

The various formations are interesting, but the defenders closest to the goal keeper are still called "backs".

Quote: Original post by phantom
Covers various formations.
(edit: and I will say, I happend to goto here and it does say "defense or backs" however it's not a term I've heard used which is why it struck me as odd; when I hear the term 'backs' I think American football)

Quote:

Quote: Original post by phantom
The shoes thing depends on the context; boots is common, or [sport type] boots (so 'football boots'). However, in the context you were using the term it would have been 'gone in with his studs showing'.

So "studs showing" instead of "cleats up"?

Based on your description of what happened, yeah. Instead of going in with his foot flat or down facing he made the tackle with his studs more visable.

It was the foot he used to attack the ball, not the other foot as if he was attacking his opponent.

Quote: Original post by phantom
I did look up the word 'cleats' quickly when replying last time, as you say it seems to be a case of the term carrying over from something else.

The dictionary definition lists off ship cleats first and shoes later.

Quote: Original post by LessBread

Quote: Original post by dmail

Quote: I think the refs wanted to give Spain a chance to make a comeback and keep their streaks going

Rubbish, if the ref wanted to give Spain a chance he would of given the stone cold penalty when the score line was one nil. As for the sending off it was harsh but you get these types of "European style" decisions given in international games.

The ref was from Uruguay. As for rubbishing my assumption, did you see the play? did you see the replay? It was a foul at best, not a red card. Earlier in the game one of the Spanish players high kicked a US player in the face in the penalty box. It didn't even draw a foul, let alone a red card. The US player - Clint Dempsey - went on to score the second goal. He plays in the Premier League too, for Fullham, iirc. At any rate, I questioned the integrity of the ref only because the call was really sketchy.

The nationality of the ref does not come into question. I did see the match whilst I was out drinking yet I must have missed the incident you are recalling about the dangerous play, but you must also concede that Spain had a certain penalty refused.

Quote: The various formations are interesting, but the defenders closest to the goal keeper are still called "backs".

They can be called collectively the back four or the back five etc but I have never heard them the term being used to describe the defenders. Although the word back is used in many of the positions such as full back, wing back, right/left back, centre back etc.

Quote: Original post by LessBread
The various formations are interesting, but the defenders closest to the goal keeper are still called "backs".

Yes, but there position in football terms is 'defense' and they are 'defenders'. That is the common and well understood collective term.

Maybe it's simply a cultural gap, footbal not being as popular in the US as American football it's easy to see how the terminology would change, but if you were to watch a game in the UK and say 'those are the backs' you might get some odd looks; refering to them as the 'back four', 'the defense' or 'defenders' .

Quote: Original post by dmail

Quote: Original post by LessBread

Quote: Original post by dmail

Quote: I think the refs wanted to give Spain a chance to make a comeback and keep their streaks going

Rubbish, if the ref wanted to give Spain a chance he would of given the stone cold penalty when the score line was one nil. As for the sending off it was harsh but you get these types of "European style" decisions given in international games.

The ref was from Uruguay. As for rubbishing my assumption, did you see the play? did you see the replay? It was a foul at best, not a red card. Earlier in the game one of the Spanish players high kicked a US player in the face in the penalty box. It didn't even draw a foul, let alone a red card. The US player - Clint Dempsey - went on to score the second goal. He plays in the Premier League too, for Fullham, iirc. At any rate, I questioned the integrity of the ref only because the call was really sketchy.

The nationality of the ref does not come into question. I did see the match whilst I was out drinking yet I must have missed the incident you are recalling about the dangerous play, but you must also concede that Spain had a certain penalty refused.

A certain penalty refused? Could you be more specific?

Quote: Original post by dmail

Quote: The various formations are interesting, but the defenders closest to the goal keeper are still called "backs".

They can be called collectively the back four or the back five etc but I have never heard them the term being used to describe the defenders. Although the word back is used in many of the positions such as full back, wing back, right/left back, centre back etc.

I was going to say that if I had called them defenders there would be no question about what I meant.

Quote: Original post by phantom
Yes, but there position in football terms is 'defense' and they are 'defenders'. That is the common and well understood collective term.

Maybe it's simply a cultural gap, footbal not being as popular in the US as American football it's easy to see how the terminology would change, but if you were to watch a game in the UK and say 'those are the backs' you might get some odd looks; refering to them as the 'back four', 'the defense' or 'defenders' .

Odd looks from dolts, sure. Left back plus right back plus center back equals backs on either side of the pond. The terminology may not concord with British practice, but plurals are formed in English the same way on either side of the Atlantic. Ironically, I had thought of referring to them as defensive backs but decided not to because that terminology comes from American football.


Brazil defeated South Africa 1-0. So it's USA v. Brazil in the final on Sunday. I wanted South Africa to win. [sad]

I hope they curtail the vuvuzelas for the World Cup next year.

Quote: Original post by LessBread
Odd looks from dolts, sure.

No, odd looks from people who are not used to the term. They would probably be thinking "what is this guy on about?".

Quote:
Left back plus right back plus center back equals backs on either side of the pond. The terminology may not concord with British practice, but plurals are formed in English the same way on either side of the Atlantic.

Except, the game of football, those players are referred to collectively as the defense or defenders. It is terminology of the game, not an english lesson.

Finally, I'd like to thank you for the insult just now; I have avoided any of the normal jibes with regards to football and americans on purpose, instead trying to give clarity to the common/accepted terms used in the game. I even pointed out reasoning for the differences due to the popularity of other sports over there.

I dunno, maybe you attack all conversations with a 'need to win' even when there was nothing to win; we could have ended this conversation some time back as for the last few posts I've been repeating the same fact over and over about the game and you appear to stubonly tried to defend a point which didn't need defending.

Either way, I'm out... well done you've.. won?
*shrugs*

Quote: Original post by phantom

Quote: Original post by LessBread
Odd looks from dolts, sure.

No, odd looks from people who are not used to the term. They would probably be thinking "what is this guy on about?".

Quote:
Left back plus right back plus center back equals backs on either side of the pond. The terminology may not concord with British practice, but plurals are formed in English the same way on either side of the Atlantic.

Except, the game of football, those players are referred to collectively as the defense or defenders. It is terminology of the game, not an english lesson.

Finally, I'd like to thank you for the insult just now; I have avoided any of the normal jibes with regards to football and americans on purpose, instead trying to give clarity to the common/accepted terms used in the game. I even pointed out reasoning for the differences due to the popularity of other sports over there.

I dunno, maybe you attack all conversations with a 'need to win' even when there was nothing to win; we could have ended this conversation some time back as for the last few posts I've been repeating the same fact over and over about the game and you appear to stubonly tried to defend a point which didn't need defending.

Either way, I'm out... well done you've.. won?
*shrugs*

I'm just saying, a person who understands English should have been able to figure out what I meant without making faces over it.

Quote: Original post by phantom
Except, the game of football, those players are referred to collectively as the defense or defenders. It is terminology of the game, not an english lesson.

Quote: Original post by LessBread
I'm just saying, a person who understands English should have been able to figure out what I meant without making faces over it.

Just for general information, in Finnish the football term is also '(the) defenders' ('puolustajat') or just 'the defense' ('puolustus'). In ice hockey they are referfed collectively as 'backs' and people in general understand it with either word in either game, but mixing them feels kind of odd.

[Edited by - Naurava kulkuri on June 28, 2009 12:26:13 AM]

It seems somewhat pretentious to go at this with the attitude that US terminology is any less valid than any other nation's. The internet is not American, but nor is it any other specific nationality.

I've always heard of them as full backs--this is from playing soccer in california.