Quote: Original post by Alpha_ProgDes
Is it feasible for everyone (who currently has insurance) right now to pay $50 - $100 a month [maximum] and still have good health insurance? And I mean without employers chipping in.

Sure.... but only for people who count "good" as having to pay the first $5000 every year, and then still paying 30% of the doctor bill for the rest of the year.

Quote: Original post by HostileExpanse

Quote: Original post by Alpha_ProgDes
Is it feasible for everyone (who currently has insurance) right now to pay $50 - $100 a month [maximum] and still have good health insurance? And I mean without employers chipping in.

Sure.... but only for people who count "good" as having to pay the first $5000 every year, and then still paying 30% of the doctor bill for the rest of the year.

Ok, I worded that wrong. Well I meant is it feasible to have a health insurance plan where people are paying $50 to 100 a month and still get the care that they need. Assuming that health insurance is changed and the same number of people are participating.

And if that's not possible, then how much would I have to pay in this new health insurance scheme the gov't is pushing if I want an individual health insurance plan not tied to my employer?

Quote: Original post by LessBread
All of that could have been avoided by a two hour visit to the dentist two months earlier, but since I didn't have insurance, I didn't do that. I coped with the problem as best I could until I no longer could and then I went to the ER. The bill for the ER was $2000. The medical indigency program covered it, so I didn't have to pay. I don't know how much the pills cost or the two visits to the dentist. Another $1000 at least. They didn't send me a bill for that. The bottom line is that the ER is no substitute for a solid health care plan. What could have been fixed for $500, ended up costing six times as much.

Guh. I've been biting the bullet for my dental appointment costs for the last few years. It's been quite expensive overall (I kind of... forgot I had teeth, or something, during university), but your story strikes me as a bit ridiculous. $500 to fill a cavity, seriously? I pay less than $150 Cdn. And they're nice white composite resin fillings, too (I had one or two amalgams before but they've been taken out) - you'd never guess from looking that I've had about 20 of them done, not to mention two root canals :)

Quote: Original post by Zahlman
I've been biting the bullet for my dental appointment costs for the last few years. It's been quite expensive overall

Perhaps you should stop biting bullets then... that can't be good for your teeth.

Sorry.

Quote: Original post by Zahlman

Quote: Original post by LessBread
All of that could have been avoided by a two hour visit to the dentist two months earlier, but since I didn't have insurance, I didn't do that. I coped with the problem as best I could until I no longer could and then I went to the ER. The bill for the ER was $2000. The medical indigency program covered it, so I didn't have to pay. I don't know how much the pills cost or the two visits to the dentist. Another $1000 at least. They didn't send me a bill for that. The bottom line is that the ER is no substitute for a solid health care plan. What could have been fixed for $500, ended up costing six times as much.

Guh. I've been biting the bullet for my dental appointment costs for the last few years. It's been quite expensive overall (I kind of... forgot I had teeth, or something, during university), but your story strikes me as a bit ridiculous. $500 to fill a cavity, seriously? I pay less than $150 Cdn. And they're nice white composite resin fillings, too (I had one or two amalgams before but they've been taken out) - you'd never guess from looking that I've had about 20 of them done, not to mention two root canals :)

That's a ball park figure for what the total cost would be, copay plus what the insurance company would pay.

One of my cousins wrecked his car in January. He took a freeway on ramp too fast, lost control and rolled a half dozen times out onto the grassy infield of the on ramp loop - single car accident, he had not been drinking. The police came, the fire department came, the ambulance came. He fractured a vertebra, was operated on, spent a week in the hospital. Total bill: $150,000. Fortunately for him, he was already classified as a 100% disabled veteran, so Uncle Sam picked up the bill. For most people that would have meant mortgaging their house, if not filing for bankruptcy.

Study Links Medical Costs and Personal Bankruptcy

Quote:
Medical problems caused 62% of all personal bankruptcies filed in the U.S. in 2007, according to a study by Harvard researchers. And in a finding that surprised even the researchers, 78% of those filers had medical insurance at the start of their illness, including 60.3% who had private coverage, not Medicare or Medicaid.
...
But medically bankrupt families with private insurance reported average out-of pocket medical bills of $17,749, while the uninsured's bills averaged $26,971. Of the families who started out with insurance but lost it during the course of their illness, medical bills averaged $22,658. "For middle-class Americans, health insurance offers little protection. Most of us have policies with so many loopholes, co-payments, and deductibles that illness can put you in the poorhouse," said lead author Himmelstein. "Unless you're Warren Buffett, your family is just one serious illness away from bankruptcy."
...
They found that a number of medical factors contributed to a family's financial disaster. More than 90% of medically related bankruptcies were caused by high medical bills directly or medical costs that were so high the family was forced to mortgage their home. The remaining 8% went bankrupt because a medical problem caused them to lose income. The authors were not able to track credit-card defaults caused by medical bills, but a 2007 study found that, of low- and middle-income households with credit-card debt, 29% used their plastic to pay off medical expenses.
...

Quote: Original post by Oluseyi

Quote: Original post by Eelco
Congratulations. You have ejected from the discussion over an inability to admit a simple mistake.

You're still not discussing improving the system...

The US is facing an actual crisis in healthcare, especially when you consider that the boomer generation will be retiring soon and further overloading an already overloaded system, but we can't even have an honest conversation about the easy stuff right now because opponents of nationalized healthcare reduce everything to flippant soundbites - "socialism!", "taxes!".

Changes that are blatantly intent on transferring wealth have a tendency to evoke such responses, yeah.

Quote:
In that grand tradition, you're ignoring the steak and potatoes of the discussion to focus on the garnishing snippet of parsley that is the supposed confusion over "savings plans."

Who. Gives. A. Fuck?

People looking for systematic ways to improve the functioning of healthcare, in a pareto optimal way?

Quote:
Is a savings plan a viable strategy for dealing with healthcare? How does it cover the costs of catastrophic incidents like cancer? If it doesn't, what is your proposed alternative to cover such incidents?

Yes: that is exactly the kind of thing id want my insurance plan to cover.

Quote: Original post by LessBread

Quote: Original post by Zahlman

Quote: Original post by LessBread
All of that could have been avoided by a two hour visit to the dentist two months earlier, but since I didn't have insurance, I didn't do that. I coped with the problem as best I could until I no longer could and then I went to the ER. The bill for the ER was $2000. The medical indigency program covered it, so I didn't have to pay. I don't know how much the pills cost or the two visits to the dentist. Another $1000 at least. They didn't send me a bill for that. The bottom line is that the ER is no substitute for a solid health care plan. What could have been fixed for $500, ended up costing six times as much.

Guh. I've been biting the bullet for my dental appointment costs for the last few years. It's been quite expensive overall (I kind of... forgot I had teeth, or something, during university), but your story strikes me as a bit ridiculous. $500 to fill a cavity, seriously? I pay less than $150 Cdn. And they're nice white composite resin fillings, too (I had one or two amalgams before but they've been taken out) - you'd never guess from looking that I've had about 20 of them done, not to mention two root canals :)

That's a ball park figure for what the total cost would be, copay plus what the insurance company would pay.

One of my cousins wrecked his car in January. He took a freeway on ramp too fast, lost control and rolled a half dozen times out onto the grassy infield of the on ramp loop - single car accident, he had not been drinking. The police came, the fire department came, the ambulance came. He fractured a vertebra, was operated on, spent a week in the hospital. Total bill: $150,000. Fortunately for him, he was already classified as a 100% disabled veteran, so Uncle Sam picked up the bill. For most people that would have meant mortgaging their house, if not filing for bankruptcy.

Study Links Medical Costs and Personal Bankruptcy

Quote:
Medical problems caused 62% of all personal bankruptcies filed in the U.S. in 2007, according to a study by Harvard researchers. And in a finding that surprised even the researchers, 78% of those filers had medical insurance at the start of their illness, including 60.3% who had private coverage, not Medicare or Medicaid.
...
But medically bankrupt families with private insurance reported average out-of pocket medical bills of $17,749, while the uninsured's bills averaged $26,971. Of the families who started out with insurance but lost it during the course of their illness, medical bills averaged $22,658. "For middle-class Americans, health insurance offers little protection. Most of us have policies with so many loopholes, co-payments, and deductibles that illness can put you in the poorhouse," said lead author Himmelstein. "Unless you're Warren Buffett, your family is just one serious illness away from bankruptcy."
...
They found that a number of medical factors contributed to a family's financial disaster. More than 90% of medically related bankruptcies were caused by high medical bills directly or medical costs that were so high the family was forced to mortgage their home. The remaining 8% went bankrupt because a medical problem caused them to lose income. The authors were not able to track credit-card defaults caused by medical bills, but a 2007 study found that, of low- and middle-income households with credit-card debt, 29% used their plastic to pay off medical expenses.
...

That's where some of my in-laws are at right now. Declaring bankruptcy because of medical bills.

Quote: Original post by LessBread

Quote: Original post by Zahlman

Quote: Original post by LessBread
All of that could have been avoided by a two hour visit to the dentist two months earlier, but since I didn't have insurance, I didn't do that. I coped with the problem as best I could until I no longer could and then I went to the ER. The bill for the ER was $2000. The medical indigency program covered it, so I didn't have to pay. I don't know how much the pills cost or the two visits to the dentist. Another $1000 at least. They didn't send me a bill for that. The bottom line is that the ER is no substitute for a solid health care plan. What could have been fixed for $500, ended up costing six times as much.

Guh. I've been biting the bullet for my dental appointment costs for the last few years. It's been quite expensive overall (I kind of... forgot I had teeth, or something, during university), but your story strikes me as a bit ridiculous. $500 to fill a cavity, seriously? I pay less than $150 Cdn. And they're nice white composite resin fillings, too (I had one or two amalgams before but they've been taken out) - you'd never guess from looking that I've had about 20 of them done, not to mention two root canals :)

That's a ball park figure for what the total cost would be, copay plus what the insurance company would pay.

I'm not sure you understood. I pay less than $150 Cdn for a filling without any insurance. That's the entire amount the dentist's office receives.

Or would you have needed more work than a simple filling, even if you'd seen someone when it started to hurt?

Quote: I pay less than $150 Cdn for a filling without any insurance

It's a lot cheaper than that here...

Quote: Original post by Eelco
Changes that are blatantly intent on transferring wealth have a tendency to evoke such responses, yeah.

Insurance is a "wealth transfer" (when you make a claim). I guess we shouldn't have insurance, then?

"Wealth transfer" is one of the dumbest reactionary terms I've ever encountered. You like having roads, police, emergency services? Wealth transfer. The benefit you gain from them, individually, far outstrips your contribution to their creation and upkeep. How do you feel about unemployment benefits? If you've never been unemployed you've never needed them, but if you have you're probably very grateful. Wealth transfer. Your individual contribution is not as large as your maximum benefit payout.

Our entire infrastructure of social and collective services is based on "wealth transfer," so to cite that as an excuse (and then to qualify it with the adjective "blatant" is just hilarious) for refusing to evaluate proposals to furnish a necessary public good that is bankrupting the economy is, quite simply, stupid.