Quote: Original post by davepermen
well, even the united states now officially agreed that the WMD stories where faked to create support to invade irak. i think this got stated by obama and bush by now. unsure about bush, though..

I don't mean to be pushy and rude, but would you perhaps have a source on this? I wouldn't believe it if I read it in a forum (no offense Gamedev), but I would believe it if I read it from a reputable news source (not faux news).

Quote: Original post by Gil Grissom

Quote: Original post by LessBread
The evidence that the Israeli government condones killing of Palestinian civilians is obvious from years of not holding it's soldiers to account for killing Palestinian civilians.

On the contrary, they do hold their soldiers accountable when the soldiers do something bad (like in the links Hodgman gave).

Which specific link was that? I didn't see anything in the links Hodgman provided that indicated that Israel holds it's soldiers to account for killing Palestinian civilians. Here's an example of an IDF officer getting a slap on the wrist after giving an order to shoot a bound prisoner in the leg: Fury after Israeli officer in charge of prisoner's shooting is 'reassigned'. I doubt he would have gotten that slap had the shooting not been videotaped and if Israel had not been under extreme pressure from the rest of the world to clean up it's act. And then there are the American and British peace activists who have been shot, maimed and killed by Israeli soldiers who have not been put on trial for their actions.

Quote: Original post by Gil Grissom

Quote: Original post by LessBread
Who ordered the white phosphorus shelling of Gaza and why haven't they been brought to trial?

Why should they have? White phosphorus is not a banned substance.

Boy, you're just full of lame excuses, aren't you? Using White Phosphorus on civilians is a war crime. You can read all about it here and here.

Quote: Original post by Gil Grissom

Quote: Original post by LessBread
Who ordered the attacks on ambulances in Gaza and why haven't they been brought to trial?

Again, why should they have? They claim the ambulances were used to smuggle terrorists.

If they dropped a nuke on the whole place would you excuse it by saying that they claimed that every Palestinian was a terrorist? They should have held those who gave the order to attack ambulances for trial because attacking ambulances is a war crime plain and simple. That they didn't indicates the extent of their barbarity. Under attack: how medics died trying to help Gaza's casualties, Gaza Children Found With Mothers’ Corpses.

Quote: Original post by Gil Grissom

Quote: Original post by LessBread
Who ordered the attacks on banks in Lebanon and why haven't they been brought to trial? ...

And yet again, why should they have? They were at war with Lebanon and that's what happens at war. In fact, I think that's one of the examples where the israeli army held back to the extent that they endangered their citizens and soldiers. For example, they largely avoided bombing civilian houses even though it was evident that militants were using these houses for shelter.

Attacking civilian targets is a war crime. A bank is a civilian target. The IDF bombed blocks of apartment building in Lebanon. Beirut bombing 'violates humanitarian law'. Instead of coming away from their war in Lebanon with a commitment to spare civilians, they came away with a doctrine that explicitly says the civilian population should be made to pay for the decisions of it's leaders. The effect of that doctrine was on display in Gaza.

>Good God Y'all.

Quote: Original post by Gil Grissom

Quote: Original post by LessBread
Israel stripped thousands of Jerusalem Arabs of residency in 2008

If you read not just the title, but the article itself, you'll see that it says something about a routine check of residency requirements. So it sounds a bit like deportation of illegal workers or revokation of visas of people who overstayed.

That was just an article I stumbled across yesterday. I think it point to the ongoing ethnic cleansing of East Jerusalem. "The phenomenon of revoking people's residency has reached frightening dimensions," said Dalia Kerstein, Hamoked's executive director. "The Interior Ministry operation in 2008 is just part of a general policy whose goal is to restrict the size of the Palestinian population and maintain a Jewish majority in Jerusalem. The Palestinians are natives of this city, not Johnny-come-latelys."

Quote: Original post by Gil Grissom

Quote: Original post by LessBread
Palestinians living in Israel are typically Israeli citizens, not foreigners.

These are usually called israeli Arabs, to distinguish them from palestinians, who are the citizens of the proposed palestinian state.

They are called that to disguise the reality of how they came to be Israelis and to suggest that there's no such thing as a Palestinian and that as Arabs they could all move to Jordan and be happy.

Quote: Original post by Gil Grissom

Quote: Original post by LessBread
That doesn't prevent them from suffering discrimination or ill treatment.

Poll: Nearly 50% of Israeli Jews don't want to live near Arabs (2008)
Olmert: Israeli Arabs have long suffered discrimination (2008)
Anti-Arab Racism and Incitement in Israel (2008)

Sure, there is discrimination agains arabs in Israel. This, by itself, is not something unusual. There is discrimination against arabs, and jews, and blacks, and women, and gay people, and elderly people, in every country in the world. Hodgman, however, mentioned government-endorsed discrimination of israeli Arabs. Your links don't cover that.

Dismissing discrimination as nothing unusual suggests that you support it. Are Arab-Israelis allowed to buy land? I don't mean lease land, I mean buy land. It's a question worth asking. Do you have an answer? And what about this: Anger over Palestinian Nakba ban proposal, Experts split on 'Nakba law', Sa'ar drops 'Nakba' from Arab textbooks.

Quote: Original post by owl

Quote: Original post by LessBread
In other words, I'm signing off for the night. The evidence that the Israeli government condones killing of Palestinian civilians is obvious from years of not holding it's soldiers to account for killing Palestinian civilians. Who ordered the white phosphorus shelling of Gaza and why haven't they been brought to trial? Who ordered the attacks on ambulances in Gaza and why haven't they been brought to trial? Who ordered the attacks on banks in Lebanon and why haven't they been brought to trial? ...

You mean a trial like that they made to Saddam? That would totally screw them up.

Wouldn't?

I don't see the comparison. Israel has a well established court system. Iraq was just then setting up it's court system. The trial and execution of Saddam is more akin to the trial of Louis XVI in France. I'm thinking more along the lines of the trial of William Calley.

I was just pointing out they won't judge themselves (or their subordinates) if that will be inconvenient for them politically. Which is an obvious fact 'course.

Quote: Original post by LessBread
Which specific link was that?

This one:

Quote: Original post by Hodgman
A simple google search turns up a disturbing article from March this year as the first result.

Quote: Original post by LessBread
Here's an example of an IDF officer getting a slap on the wrist after giving an order to shoot a bound prisoner in the leg:

So you do agree that they punish inappropriate behavior?

Quote: Original post by LessBread
And then there are the American and British peace activists who have been shot, maimed and killed by Israeli soldiers who have not been put on trial for their actions.

You aren't saying they shot these people on purpose, do you? Seriously, don't you think the israeli government has better things to do than shooting a couple of people who are in no position to influence anything significantly?

Quote: Original post by LessBread
Using White Phosphorus on civilians is a war crime.

It wasn't used on civilians, it was used in a war zone. Unfortunately, this particular war zone happened to be populated. But it was a war zone nevertheless.

Quote: Original post by LessBread
You can read all about it here and here.

Somehow the article mentioning that HRW "found no evidence of using civilians as human shields" despite wide availability of documentation to the contrary (some of it available even on youtube) doesn't make it sound very credible.

Quote: Original post by LessBread
If they dropped a nuke on the whole place would you excuse it by saying that they claimed that every Palestinian was a terrorist?

If they claimed that that was the case -- sure, I would. Of course, it's up to you whether to believe it or not. But in the absense of any evidence to the contrary, it's just a belief.

Quote: Original post by LessBread
They should have held those who gave the order to attack ambulances for trial because attacking ambulances is a war crime plain and simple.

Oh no, it's not. Especially when the ambulance carries a terrorist.

Quote: Original post by LessBread
Attacking civilian targets is a war crime. A bank is a civilian target.

Again, it's not a civilian target when it harbors militants.

Quote: Original post by LessBread
I think it point to the ongoing ethnic cleansing of East Jerusalem.

Why do you think it points to ethnic cleansing any more than deporting illegal immigrants points to an ethnic cleansing of California? I think it's a pretty routine thing, people had a visa, then they left or their visa expired, and now they don't have the visa anymore.

Quote: Original post by LessBread
They are called that to disguise the reality of how they came to be Israelis and to suggest that there's no such thing as a Palestinian and that as Arabs they could all move to Jordan and be happy.

No, they are called that just for convenience, to distinguish them from the people who live in Gaza and West bank. Much like we call black US citizens "african american", as opposed to black citizens of, say, Cameroon, who are just "african". And no, they don't suggest that there is no such thing as a palestinian, on the contrary -- those people who live in Gaza and West bank are called palestinians.

Quote: Original post by LessBread
Dismissing discrimination as nothing unusual suggests that you support it.

That's an interesting statement. I also think that drug trafficking and violent crime happen everywhere all the time. Does that mean I support these things too?

Just to clarify a bit what I mean by saying that discrimination is nothing unusual. One of the articles you linked mentioned that 50% of (supposedly jewish) israelis do not want to live next to arabs. That situation, by itself, is not unusual at all. Things like that happen in all countries. For example, rich don't want to live next to the poor, very religious people don't want to live next to atheists, etc. If you asked white americans whether they want to live in someplace like Harlem, do you think more than 50% would say yes? I'm sure they wouldn't. So that, by itself, however negative you may consider it, is not a phenomenon specific to Israel. What Hodgman suggested was that in Israel this kind of discrimination was institutionalized somehow. Do you think it is? If yes, would you care to give an example?

Quote: Original post by LessBread
Are Arab-Israelis allowed to buy land?

Yes, they are, and of course many of them own land in Israel. That refers to government-owned land. Private land owners can make their own decisions about who to sell to.

Quote: Original post by LessBread
And what about this: Anger over Palestinian Nakba ban proposal

What about that? A guy proposed some law, which some people found inappropriate and criticised. You are not suggesting that things like that happen only in Israel, do you? If that law were passed, that would be another matter, but it was criticised within Israel itself.

lol

Quote: Original post by Gil Grissom

Quote: Original post by LessBread
They should have held those who gave the order to attack ambulances for trial because attacking ambulances is a war crime plain and simple.

Oh no, it's not. Especially when the ambulance carries a terrorist.

I haven't read this whole thread, but are you saying that killing two or three medics in an ambulance is justified if there's a terrorist in there as well?