Age to be introduced to programming

Moving to the Lounge.

I wrote my first ever line of code shortly before my 13th birthday (i.e. sometime shortly before June 2000). It was pre-standard C++ from a SAMS book, coupled with some stuff from C For Dummies. Had downloaded Allegro and tried to make a game, but barely got anything onscreen.

Didn't understand what I was doing, got fed up and abandoned it for about two years until we were taught VB6 at school.

I was lucky to get my first computer (C64) when I was very young (< 10) and I started with some BASIC on it.
IMO programming is mostly a DIY job, forget about the course... get a book and a compiler and start a project.. it is never too early.

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Original post by WindScar In an attempt to make it a bit more serious I went to a local course, but they said that programming is not taught until 18 because it is "too hard" and requires "advanced mathematic skills".

If they manage to cram anything beyond basic arithmetic into a beginning course, I would be surprised. Even in 2nd year university courses, you don't hit much more than basic algebra, a (tiny) bit of set theory, and maybe a little trig if you take a graphics-oriented course.

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What do you think?

IMHO, nobody learns much of anything in a programming course. You already have the basics, so pick a topic/project that interests you, buy a few books if you need to, and learn on your own.

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Also how old are you and since when you program?

I started at around 12-13, teaching myself from the sample code installed with the Mac devtools. Admittedly, this is a masochistic method of learning, but it worked out pretty well in the long run.

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Original post by WindScar but they said that programming is not taught until 18 because it is "too hard" and requires "advanced mathematic skills".

The fuck? I started programming when I was seven. And "advanced math skills"? If by that they mean calculus, then they're wrong; and if they mean induction and logic, that's true, but that's also how you learn it. Study after study has shown that teaching children programming at a very young age gives them a huge advantage both for computer skills and math and science skills.

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The fuck?

Seriously. I started with QBASIC when i was 8 or 9.

I'd honestly say that the earlier the better. Like, a second language, the brain can pick up the "mindset" for anything a lot easier when it is young. Makes me wonder why they push so much stuff off till you are older. I knew a kid in highschool who was ~11 when he started taking college level math courses. He didn't know everything, but he had the mindset to do math.

I will say this. The people who are going to be strong at it, are going to be strong at it with it when they are young. I have done a lot of math tutoring, and the kids who become good at math were already strong with it before.

I started at a quite a young age as well, with QBasic, the VBasic and attempted some C++ on my own. Eventually went to college for it; which sure I would recommend some age minimum there; but I would also recommend allowing anyone to join any sort of (within limits) learning activity regardless of age. IE; you should be able to take college level calculus at 5yrs old if you have a solid understand of the prerequisites and have the determination/dedication to learn.

Quite frankly, I'd rather a student that would be dedicated over one that fits 'age requirements' and whom doesn't care much.

Another question btw, as you guys all started at low ages, do you have an increadible ease in math, physics, and in any school subject? Because I always got really high ranks in school without rarely touching any book. I actually feel like the subjects are ridiculously easy, but it's not surprising as I had to work with concepts like coordinates, quadratic equations, acceleration and all since childhood, thing's they start teaching at high school.

But what's weird is that those concepts weren't actually difficult for me to understand back them, it was pretty natural. Maybe we understimate children's learning power, I would like to see someone made some attempt to teach complicated subjects to children and see how they react.

Programming ability is generic affinity, just like affinity for drawing, music, singing, dancing...

Computer science is specialized field of selected mathematical topics.

Software engineering is an engineering discipline.

IT is a different beast altogether, and involves everything from help desk call centers, manual labor (cables, boxes, shelves, hardware, ...) to sales, marketing, finance.

Then there are various other topics, such as Interaction Design, operations (technical positions), even user experience management, and whatnot.

Programming itself will feel natural to a certain subset of population, and completely alien to others (similar to those tone deaf). Despite that, it can be learned by most people to a basic degree, same as basic math concepts can be applied by almost anyone, even those who do not understand theory.

Software engineering today can benefit greatly from statistics. Not just from knowing the basic formulas, but from people who can separate the "lies" from actual statistics.

Computer science today has (or should) shift as well. From basic ADTs, Oh-notation proofs and hardware component architectures into more applicable domains. Graph theory is fairly big right now, as well as data mining (again statistics). In many ways, computer science simply requires some decent familiarity with fairly advance mathematical topics. I'd go as far to say that Computer Science should become a Math (theory) or Physics (engineering) discipline. It is surprising how much physics can help with engineering (modeling, simulations, QA, reliability, sampling).

But as far as programming goes, it is a vocational skill, for which some people are just naturally better suited for, and which improves with practice.

The biggest problem comes from lack of distinction in the industry, where many people work as programmers, even if that is not what their job is about. How many people write in their job - how many of those people are writers?

The thing with teaching anyone anything (complicated or not) is their ability, desire and wanting to learn. You can't teach someone who doesn't want to learn; which goes back to my post above. That said, if you get a kid even less than 10 or something, who is truly interested in programming, rocket science or whatever it be and start feeding them information I am pretty sure they will understand it with both practice and effort.

That said, I am highly interested in the programming of physics. Unfortunately I am having a hard time understanding some of the math involved. Linear physics; gravity, friction etc I am perfectly set with. Once we get into rotational physics I start getting lost. Partially an issue of the program I went through in college taught the physics too early in my opinion. But even since then I've bought 4 books on physics, read countless web pages and articles and still only have a grasp on the linear side of things. The thing that really stinks is I have the desire and effort but I just haven't CLICKED yet.

So going back to the first part, I guess it depends on the kid. Assuming things are clicking then yes they are capable of learning whatever; And I still think with enough dedication and effort things will click; at least I hope so or I will waste a lot more time on these physics issues.

I started programming in BASIC when I was 6, and I was horrible at math until I was 10 or 11.

FWIW I've never been a terribly good mathematician, but it's never held me back too far in terms of coding ability.

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Original post by Sneftel The fuck? I started programming when I was seven.

The fuck is that there is no point whatsoever to start and continue programming at age 7. 7 is bull**** (im sorry, Sneftel, for being so blunt)

18 is a very appropriate age to start learning programming more or less seriously.

You ask why?

1) There is more important tasks (starting math, social interactions, blah blah all that kind of stuff) and things to learn at those ages.

2) Things you will MAKE or LEARN in one week when you are 12 will probably take you 5 minutes at the time you are 20. So whats the point of spending your time on that when you have so much other more important things to learn and do?

3) Learning math and solving math/logic tasks is more important than learning programming language early.

WindScar - simple answer is - don't go to that course.

I started programming when I was about 10 or 11, although I didn't do all that much at first.

For most programming, the only math you need is basic algebra and logical thinking. You learn that through practice and repetition, and programming is a good way to develop those skills.

Honestly, I think that someone who starts at a younger age will end up as a better programmer than someone who started as an adult.

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Original post by Semei 1) There is more important tasks (starting math, social interactions, blah blah all that kind of stuff) and things to learn at those ages. 2) Things you will MAKE or LEARN in one week when you are 12 will probably take you 5 minutes at the time you are 20. So whats the point of spending your time on that when you have so much other more important things to learn and do? 3) Learning math and solving math/logic tasks is more important than learning programming language early.

You seem to have a rather screwed up idea of what form learning programming as a child takes.

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Original post by Semei The fuck is that there is no point whatsoever to start and continue programming at age 7. 7 is bull****

Spoken like someone who has never been around kids - especially not precocious kids.

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Origional post by Semei 1) There is more important tasks (starting math, social interactions, blah blah all that kind of stuff) and things to learn at those ages.

I'd second the Social Interactions part. But not the rest. Programming is a "hands on" approach to math and writing. Making text adventure games as a kid was an excuse to write stories. Showing it to my parents would have them correct the English, and try to help me make the writing better. Doing the programming shows you exactly what particular math is doing. I learned a lot of cool math facts while programming, just because I could graph the outputs and see what the formula were doing.

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2) Things you will MAKE or LEARN in one week when you are 12 will probably take you 5 minutes at the time you are 20. So whats the point of spending your time on that when you have so much other more important things to learn and do?

That is BS. The reason it takes 5min to make now is that you've played with it forever. The first time you try to do something it is going to be an adventure in trial and error. Doesn't matter if you start at age 9 or at age 25, if you haven't done it before it takes a while. Besides, considering I make games for a living now, my parents are proud that they let me program some nights instead of watching mindless TV.

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3) Learning math and solving math/logic tasks is more important than learning programming language early.

Again. I think you are separating subjects too much. Programming has a lot of math in it. The FIRST program I ever made was a calculator. Much of the "mindset" of programming is the same "mindset" as math and science. From a post on how most programmers get stopped up by "fizzbizz", it is fairly obvious that there are people who just can program, like there are some people who can draw or can make music. It comes to some people natually, and to another subset of people they can't be taught. Doesn't matter what the subject, standard "double hump" grade curve tends to exist across the board.

One thing that a LOT of programming newcomers miss is that the language you program in means very little. You "program" in English when making up instructions for another person: directions to get to my house, recipe for cookies, how to tie your shoes. The problem is seeing if your mind is good at the process. For instance, not to sound sexist, but in college chemistry, there seemed to be a correlation between the girls who cooked all the time, and the ones who did good in the chem labs(i remember one day some of them actually comparing the lab to cooking). The end goal is learning HOW to do think about a process, and no so much the medium of learning.

I love these eDick-measuring contests for who started programming first. I actually developed mind control in my mother's womb and programmed my first game using her limbs before I was even born.