Quote: Original post by cowsarenotevil

Quote: Original post by zedz
(stuff)

You do realize that a) Russian law is completely different from US law and that b) US law explicitely differentiates between parody (OK) and infringement (not OK), right?

correct on both counts
which is exactly my point
A/ there is no worldwide law WRT this
B/ just justify it as parody (easy to do if u need help, email me Ill be happy to supply a pisstake of the game/story/film/play/song)

Quote: Tanja Grotter and the magical contrabass.

seems youre right, I dont read russian so was accepting another sources 'reading' of the title

parody or pisstake

Quote: Although a parody can be considered a derivative work under United States Copyright Law, it can be protected from claims by the copyright owner of the original work under the fair use doctrine, which is codified in 17 USC § 107. The Supreme Court of the United States stated that parody "is the use of some elements of a prior author's composition to create a new one that, at least in part, comments on that author's works." That commentary function provides some justification for use of the older work. See Campbell v. Acuff-Rose Music, Inc.

In 2001, the United States Court of Appeals, 11th Circuit, in Suntrust v. Houghton Mifflin, upheld the right of Alice Randall to publish a parody of Gone with the Wind called The Wind Done Gone, which told the same story from the point of view of Scarlett O'Hara's slaves, who were glad to be rid of her.

>>A/ there is no worldwide law WRT this

which is a bugbear of mine, Im looking into a patent of an invention of mine and trying to do worldwide is a right royal PITA

Quote: Original post by zedz
B/ just justify it as parody (easy to do if u need help, email me Ill be happy to supply a pisstake of the game/story/film/play/song)

It may be easy but it is also expensive. Claiming fair use as a parody is a defense once someone has decided to sue but it won't prevent such a claim. The IP owner can sue you and you would have to go to court and fight a very expensive case to get the court to rule that a project was in fact a parody.

Regardless of the law, it makes zero business sense to attack fans of your IP. For one thing, it is stupidly arrogant to think that your IP is incredibly original. All ideas were inspired by other ideas. I'm not implying that everyone has the right to just use others' IP, but IP rights holders should get some perspective before assuming their creation is somehow 100% original. Execution is far more valuable than design. (Better design obviously leads to better execution, but design without execution is worth a lot less than people give it credit.)

Given the current state of affairs, of course I would never attempt a project based on someone else's IP. However, as a creator of worlds myself, I would never ever shut down someone else building an experience using my IP. I might request that it be made clear that it is an unofficial chapter in my universe, but I have much to lose by shutting it down.

Activision made a legal but stupid move. Simple as that. It disgusts me seeing people attack this team of fans and make statements such as "they spent 8 years stealing the IP"... right, because building custom code, custom assets, and a custom experience have absolutely no value whatsoever. It's all in the IP. There is definitely value in IP too, but overvaluing IP is what leads to so many bad games all the time. Publishers think the IP alone will carry it to success.

@TheBuzzSaw: thanks for showing there's some humanity left on this board! I understand clearly the legal rights, but the first two pages of this thread stink of "legal = moral", "implementation+effort <<< IP" mindset.

I haven't played the original and the fan-created games, but I doubt the latter is simply a retelling of the original. So, those fans can simply change the names of product and characters, modify assets a bit (also remove the ones from the original) - and voila it's something completely new, from legal and moral POV. Even in the worst case, they got enough experience developing TSL, and probably enough assets and code to kick-start something completely different.

"spent 8 years stealing IP" hah. Need some oil with those batteries :S ?

Quote: Original post by TheBuzzSaw
Given the current state of affairs, of course I would never attempt a project based on someone else's IP. However, as a creator of worlds myself, I would never ever shut down someone else building an experience using my IP. I might request that it be made clear that it is an unofficial chapter in my universe, but I have much to lose by shutting it down.

Except that the dumb sheep people of the world wouldn't realize its "unofficial" and if the game was horribly bad it very well might prevent people from buying your game. So you are right, there is much that you could loose. Game are business, if you want to continue to eat it pays to make sure not everybody is making knock offs of your game. Some hobby project IP is completely different then an IP that is worth millions of dollars. Sorry, but when you get some actual experience on the business side of things you will quickly realize you don't let people do whatever they want with your stuff. Or you won't be in business long. This isn't just for games but any kind of business.

Quote: Activision made a legal but stupid move. Simple as that. It disgusts me seeing people attack this team of fans and make statements such as "they spent 8 years stealing the IP"... right, because building custom code, custom assets, and a custom experience have absolutely no value whatsoever. It's all in the IP. There is definitely value in IP too, but overvaluing IP is what leads to so many bad games all the time. Publishers think the IP alone will carry it to success.

Let me see if I can work up a tear for you.

Quote: Original post by jtagge75
Except that the dumb sheep people of the world wouldn't realize its "unofficial" and if the game was horribly bad it very well might prevent people from buying your game. So you are right, there is much that you could loose. Game are business, if you want to continue to eat it pays to make sure not everybody is making knock offs of your game. Some hobby project IP is completely different then an IP that is worth millions of dollars. Sorry, but when you get some actual experience on the business side of things you will quickly realize you don't let people do whatever they want with your stuff. Or you won't be in business long. This isn't just for games but any kind of business.

I take it you've seen this happen. Care to provide any examples? Because frankly, I can name quite a few fan projects that were as good (sometimes better) than the originals, but the creators shut it down simply because the lawyers have nothing better to do. Just because you can does not mean you should. I do have experience in the business side of things. Fans finish the official original game and want more. The only place they can turn is to fan projects until another official release comes out. This expression of love by fans leads to many more sales than your conjecture that someone will play a bad fan project, hate it, and avoid the official game as a result.

Quote: Let me see if I can work up a tear for you.

Are you developing any IP these days? Be my guest. Treat your fans like dirt. See how that turns out.

Quote: Original post by idinev
but the first two pages of this thread stink of "legal = moral", "implementation+effort <<< IP" mindset.

I haven't played the original and the fan-created games, but I doubt the latter is simply a retelling of the original.

No, the mindset is; if you play in someone elses sandbox and agree they can take away your right to play there at any time then there is no point crying when they do.

It probably isn't a retelling; but I bet it uses the back history, names, places and other elements which are part of the IP of the game.

They were also trading on the name of the original game in order to get people intrested in the project; again using someone elses IP.

Just because you've put in effort doesn't sidestep the legal issues, nor does it sideset the effort which went into developing the IP in the first place which they were using to advance their game.
(You could argue that Activision didn't develop it, however the price of that development would have been tied into the various sales the IP has gone through).

Quote: Original post by phantom
No, the mindset is; if you play in someone elses sandbox and agree they can take away your right to play there at any time then there is no point crying when they do.

It probably isn't a retelling; but I bet it uses the back history, names, places and other elements which are part of the IP of the game.

They were also trading on the name of the original game in order to get people intrested in the project; again using someone elses IP.

Just because you've put in effort doesn't sidestep the legal issues, nor does it sideset the effort which went into developing the IP in the first place which they were using to advance their game.
(You could argue that Activision didn't develop it, however the price of that development would have been tied into the various sales the IP has gone through).

No one is arguing that what Activision did was illegal. We're only arguing that it was stupid. The people behind the project knowingly took a risk, and we accept that. It's just silly to continually refer to these acts as somehow malicious. We're not implying that "hard work justifies taking others' IP". The project only came about because they were die-hard fans of Kings Quest. You just make it sound as if they had a generic game on their hands and one day "decided" to abuse the KQ IP to bring fame to their project.

Naturally, I would never participate in such a project. I know the legal ramifications of doing so. I simply feel sorry for those who brave that path and suffer the harsh hand of corporate elitism. I know you don't feel sorry for anyone in this mess, but fan projects of this magnitude should be a huge red flag to IP owners that they are not serving their fan base well enough. If a bunch of people are willing to put in time despite not being paid for it, that kind of activity should be supported and rewarded, not annihilated.

Quote: Original post by TheBuzzSaw
It disgusts me seeing people attack this team of fans and make statements such as "they spent 8 years stealing the IP"... right, because building custom code, custom assets, and a custom experience have absolutely no value whatsoever.

I think a lot of people in this thread defending Activision agree with the point being made here, so they recommend that the team retain the value in building custom code, custom assets, and a custom experience by replacing Activision's IP with IP they have the legal right to use. If this option seems less appealing, that just highlights the value in Activision's IP. If giving it the name "King's Quest" makes the project more appealing than calling it "Royal Fairy Tale Mash-Up" or "King Arthur's Adventure in Fairy Land", then that shows part of the value the King's Quest brand has been providing the project.