Selling Indie... XNA/PC - What is your experience?

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Original post by Orymus In which case, making a game wouldn't be a very profitable hobby :P)

There are very few "hobbies" that are. By definition a hobby isn't something you do for money.

I released two games in Xbox Live Indie Games, Bennu and Attack of the 50ft Verbose Dinosaur. So far none broke 200 copies sold. :)

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Original post by Demosthenes Attack of the 50ft Verbose Dinosaur.

The name alone should have made you a small fortune.

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Original post by Demosthenes I released two games in Xbox Live Indie Games, Bennu and Attack of the 50ft Verbose Dinosaur. So far none broke 200 copies sold. :)

What is your pricing and advertising method? How much flexibility do you get on doing things like bundled games and such on the Xbox?

One thing you'd need to consider is paying taxes. I don't think Microsoft deducts taxes for you when they cut you your check from the Xbox Live Indie sales. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

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The name alone should have made you a small fortune.

If only. :)

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What is your pricing and advertising method? How much flexibility do you get on doing things like bundled games and such on the Xbox?

Bennu originally sold for 400 points (5 dollars/euros), about 6 months later I reduced the price to 240 points. Attack of the 50ft Verbose Dinosaur has been selling for 80 points.

I sent several emails when I put both games on sale. I recommend sending a trailer to gametrailers.com. I never heard of them refusing any indie game and they are a very popular site. There's also a thread here that lists websites that review xbox indie games. I'm not sure if you need a creators club membership to view it.

I'm not sure what you mean with bundled games... You mean compilations with several indie games? I don' know if it has been done before on the xbox.

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One thing you'd need to consider is paying taxes. I don't think Microsoft deducts taxes for you when they cut you your check from the Xbox Live Indie sales. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Microsoft keeps 30% of the money you make from the games and you have to pay another 30% of taxes (after Microsoft takes their cut, which means you keep 49% of the profits).

Overall, it's really hard to live from xbox indie games. There are few success stories, mostly involving a game with zombies and/or avatars or apps like massagers or screensavers. There are also many quality games, like the Arkedo series or pretty much all from Mommy's Best. But even these developers say they are barely doing enough to keep them going.

If you want to sell I'd recommend doing a game that people can pick up and play immediately and which appeals to most "standard" xbox 360 players. Bennu's controls were really hard to master and most people that come to the xbox indie games channel are looking for a quick break from the AAA games, not something to invest their time in. Attack of the Verbose Dinosaur is a word/action game hybrid and it is doing better, but not that great either.

I was not aware of these taxes? What are they? (I mean, I know about Microsoft's 30% cut, but that other 30%?)

Also, I'm using the xbox release as a support for my pc release. Developping in XNA simply allows to sell to two markets instead of one. Since profit is scarce for indies, its one way to try and improve it.

Oh and, I have the XNA licensing.

And 200 copies is sad :( How many tries did you have though?

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Original post by Orymus I was not aware of these taxes? What are they? (I mean, I know about Microsoft's 30% cut, but that other 30%?)

Taxes


If you can get you're game on steam, you can make about 60% ($30 per $50 game)

My personal goal is 2000 copies at $20 (roughly $10) ~ more than I make a year now.

Ya, I know what taxes are, but I am not based in the usa, so I'm wondering which taxes apply? Mines? Theirs? Both?

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Original post by Orymus Ya, I know what taxes are, but I am not based in the usa, so I'm wondering which taxes apply? Mines? Theirs? Both?

not 100% but you'd paid Canadian income taxes.
In which case, you'd still pay ~20% + any other taxes y'all have.


It's something you'd need to talk over with an accountant, or tax consultant with.

Releasing your first indie game with the idea of it making money is probably a bad idea. At least on the PC side the developers that generally make any kind of money are the ones who have several games out and have built a bit of a name. Most of the indie stuff that does sell is generally casual type games. A 2D RPG might be a bit harder of a sell because of the level of involvement that goes in to them. XNA may be a bit of an issue as well because of the additional installation needed.

Really ought to just count on making nothing for this game (maybe enough to cover expenses) and just use it as a stepping stone for your team to make your next game. The numbers you do see are for the lucky ones. Most indie games are probably lucky if they sell 300 copies in a lifetime.

To touch on your post about royalties from the other day. This is another reason why I won't mess with a game that only offers royalties as pay. I've personally seen how hard it is for a indie game to get picked up. I have a complete causual game that every major casual publisher declined on, nevermind that all the people we demoed it to loved it. The chances of an indie game making enough money to pay a team is very slim. One or two man teams are probably about the only ones that would make any money.

Actually, I'm not trying to make a profit with this one particular game. I just don't want it to bankrupt me.
The whole point of the current exercise is having an idea how much the royalties will pay for. I want to pay the team that contributes to the effort. I don't expect to get a single $ from the exchange.

Indeed, XNA looks pretty grim in terms of developer rate :S

On the other hand, if you already have a job (that you're happy with), it might be a good way to make some beer money on the side.

Don't think I'd want to try doing it for a living! (But to be honest, I don't think I'd want to try selling indie games for a living, full stop. I'm sure there are success stories, but it's far too risky for my taste)

I had an 'argument' with my gf where i totally won... the summary would be:

Her: But you're not making a lot of money out of it right? I mean, you couldn't buy more than one week of groceries?

Me: So?

...

Me: How much do you spend on your hobby?

Her: about X$

Me: My hobby earns me (earnings+X)$ more than you

-end of argument-

point is, most hobbies COST something.
If you enjoy something and turn up a profit, no matter how small, I consider it like the hobby paid for itself.

And yes, I like my day job enough for this to be just a hobby :P

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Original post by Orymus Actually, I'm not trying to make a profit with this one particular game. I just don't want it to bankrupt me. The whole point of the current exercise is having an idea how much the royalties will pay for. I want to pay the team that contributes to the effort. I don't expect to get a single $ from the exchange. Indeed, XNA looks pretty grim in terms of developer rate :S

That was what I was trying to get at. Your original numbers are very optimistic based on the 'successful' indie game. In reality you are probably looking at 300 total copies sold if you are lucky. Though if you advertise the crap out of if and get some of the indie game sites to review it you will most likely increase your sales (and your money invested). Given that this is your first game its unlikely that anybody is making any profit.

I'm probably a bit jaded since my game didn't go anywhere. But for the most part even the successful indie developers usually have a day job. That should tell you how much money is actually made. As you said, most hobbys take money.

One thing of note is that XNA is great for students. Many students want to learn how to do the programming anyway, and if they can make a little extra ramen noodle money on the side it helps that much more.

The obvious advantage of this project is that, unlike in the biz, you get to make your 'dream game' without your 'dream bankrupty'.

Flash rather than XNA but I'm sure it will hold some use: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/27924/InDepth_Behind_Flash_Game_SteamBirds_Revenue_Deals.php